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/diy/ Do-It-Yourself

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 01:08:09 No.706292

[Missing image file: ]

I’ve been working on this for a little while now. I’m working on electrolysis units for vehicles. Firstly, I’m fairly familiar with all the scams, the run your car on water, the water spark plugs, the resonant frequency of water, etc.

The type of unit I’m working on is often called a Tero Cell, basically several metal plates made out of a corrosion resistant stainless steel such as 308 or 316 stainless plates separated by gaskets. The two end plates are welded, or precut with a connector edge to of course connect your positive and negative voltage leads. The bottom of the plates, inside the gasket area have small holes drilled to allow even distribution of the water and electrolyte mixture. The top has larger holes to allow gas to escape, and during refill of water/electrolyte mixture.

My first version of this design is a little rough, I’ll probably make a new one soon, but I want to focus on integrating it with my vehicles. My first idea is to get a solar panel roughly the size of the roof of my vehicle, connect that to some kind of controller that interfaces with the car electrical systems to change current to the electrolysis unit based on the RPM or other demand criteria of the car’s engine.

So first problem is how to integrate that controlling system with the car. Basically, change the current input to the electrolysis up or down with the cars’ RPMs thereby changing the output of hydrogen coming out.

The second problem is how to connect the outgoing gas hose to the air intake system, such as drilling into the intake manifold, etc.

Third problem is preventing vacuum from the intake sucking in water+electrolyte mixture.

Fourth problem is more integration with the cars electrical system, namely, the changes it would cause in stoichiometry, and how that might change the car’s computer fuel calculations, O2 sensor readings, etc.


>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 01:11:57 No.706293
>>706292
>I’m fairly familiar with all the scams

this is a scam too, except you're wasting your money and time on yourself

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 01:26:36 No.706296
>>706293

How is it a scam, it produces hydrogen, and the energy will be extracted from a solar panel.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 01:31:50 No.706303
>>706296
>a solar panel
Just use a power supply.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 01:34:16 No.706305
>>706293

This is the problem with all the scams anon, they've successfully driven all the pursuit of legitimate hydrogen uses away.

Hydrogen can and is used successfully, and electrolysis is the only viable means for basic tinkering.

You can't just hook one up to a car and expect better gas mileage, (although conceivably it could clean emissions) but as long as the energy is coming from somewhere else, like OPs solar panel, it's viable.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 01:35:42 No.706306
>>706303

That's what I do while I'm working on it for testing etc, but for it's intended use of putting it in a vehicle, a solar panel and possibly an extra battery or two are the best bets.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 01:41:40 No.706309
>>706305
See from OP:
>Third problem is preventing vacuum from the intake sucking in water+electrolyte mixture.
>Fourth problem is more integration with the cars electrical system, namely, the changes it would cause in stoichiometry, and how that might change the car’s computer fuel calculations, O2 sensor readings, etc.

The dude wants to carry his system *on his car*, not just bottled hydrogen made from a stationary hydrogen generator of some sort. So, yeah, he is still in crack pot territory.

OP, you can't take it with you. Any solar panel small enough to fit on a car is too small to generator meaningful amounts of hydrogen. On top of that the system is going to greatly increase the weight of your vehicle and that will greatly effect fuel economy. Finally, as has been mentioned, you can't just plug a hydrogen line into your air intake and expect it to magically improve your gas mileage. Without the proper amount of oxygen your fuel mixture will be too rich, your emissions will go up and your fuel economy down. If you use a modern car the onboard computer might be able to fix the mixture but it wont be ideal. You'll still probably end up losing gas mileage. Unless you have the knowledge to completely change how your vehicles engine operates you're better off giving this whole mess a pass. Pure electric vehicles are much more DIY friendly.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 01:45:49 No.706311
>>706292

Is that pic your actual cell?... very nice!

Can I have it when you find it doesn't work? I need it for my oxyhydrogen welder. I'll pay for shipping.

It takes about 300W currently to produce enough gas to weld. A very small car requires approximately 70kW (50,000 W) to move it, usefully as a car.

The best you'll be able to do with your solar cell is about 150W, BTW. All the losses are going to be incredible, too. I expect you're off by four orders of magnitude.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 02:08:11 No.706322
Switching gears from the practicality of this in a car to the generation of hydrogen in general; have you tried

1) oscillating the voltage so that it's not being given DC all the time, as the moment a hydrogen bubble is formed that surface area of the plate is no longer touching water and wasting energy, and

2) using something like the agitation method of an ultrasonic cleaner to break those hydrogen bubbles away from the plates during this off-cycle of DC energy to further restore plate/water contact? Then,

3) Toying with the frequency of #1 and #2 while measuring hydrogen production to find a sweet spot where you get the most fuel per watt?

Also that pic is the first result of a google search, and the site it's attached to is pure shit.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 02:14:37 No.706325
If you were generating hydrogen, compressing it into tanks, and then using it in a vehicle - that would be bad ass.

Even just storing energy as hydrogen and generating electricity with it would be bad ass.

But what you are doing is a scam that doesn't make any sense.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 02:30:01 No.706335
>>706322
>the moment a hydrogen bubble is formed that surface area of the plate is no longer touching water and wasting energy
if the plate is no longer touching water, no current is flowing there so no energy is wasted
your description could increase production rate but at increased input energy
either way is wasted energy so better stay with the lower rate to waste less energy over a given time

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 02:55:48 No.706341
>>706292
it's something I've looked into as well anon. there are many variations on it as a scam. there are a few that actually have benefit.

A good place to start looking is the "Brown's gas" and HHO myths and facts.

There is no doubt that a mixture of [math] H_2[/math] and [math] O_2[/math] and water vapor has the potential to increase horsepower and fuel economy. the question is how much of an increase for how much electrical energy and added sophistication of the gas generation / regulation / delivery equipment

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:00:31 No.706342
I looked into this too for my car and it was just a huge waste with no gain. It would be a cool experiment if I had time to waste though.

Depending on where the unit is located (trunk?) you have to have setup a bubbler and water separator. The bubbler prevents possible fires from reaching the unit. You also need to have check valves in place to further control gas flow when the car is off. You want gas trapped in your transfer line to be vented or evacuated. Leaving it trapped is bad for business!
You need to monitor the temperature of the unit and keep it topped off with water. Plates also don't last forever and the more you can generate the shorter the lifespan. Even if you make it out of the best material you can get you run risks and should invest in sensors to monitor the unit. Emergency shutoffs and integration to the car's electrical system are important too.
After dealing with all of the preventative safety you have to deal with the car's computer like others have mentioned. You'll need to install oxygen sensor spoofing circuitry. O2 sensors are goddamn expensive so good luck if you wreck the cables while splicing them. You then need to calibrate these sensors and find a sweet spot.

After all of that is done, you know what you could have done? invest your time in fabricating aerodynamic modifications to your car's body, performing thorough maintenance on your engine, and make sure more important things are excellent like brakes and tires and the electrical. Or you could just save up for something that's newer and is well designed in all ways for fuel economy.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:01:27 No.706344
Its not a scam per say but it is often used by over unity faggots with no clue about how shit works or shady self proclaimed inventors, who end up in prison for fraud. It does take a but load of power, however, it takes a butt load of DC power and there is no minimum power amount, it scales with voltage. So a solar panel can passively make it. It is possible to get a car to run off it, it burns hotter than gasoline. It would require a dedicated engine and people with actual engineering degrees to do it. I remember reading early nazi rocket fuel was hho gas plus alcohol. Also you can make it increase gas mileage but its a lot of work, sometimes the on board computer will fuck with the mixture a week or two after you start and you lose all the gain. Even if you cant get it to work its basically free explosives.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:07:46 No.706348
>>706311
If you want to make one of these then take a gander at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqjn3mup1So

His videos may be designed for idiots with time on their hands but that is one sexy-looking and reasonably efficient hydrogen generator.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:18:37 No.706354
>>706344
who end up in prison for fraud

its like the system knows what its doing

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:24:38 No.706358
>>706354
Literally dozens of people. HHO gas attracts some of the laziest scammers known to man. Over unity faggots tend to be this in some way or another. People fall for it too, ive seen perpetual motion fund sites with 200k on it.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:25:28 No.706360
>>706354
0/10
Hydrogen is terrible outside of space ships.
Why?
Storage is a nightmare.
It has terrible density for volume (The primary concern of everything EXCEPT spaceships)

Do you know what else has hydrogen in it? Petrol.

Do you know what you should be doing if you want to screw the oil companies?
Design a bacteria to convert blue-green algae to biodiesel.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:29:23 No.706362
>>706360
You could also fix the horribly abused patent system so that oil company that sitting on the NIHM patent wont be able to stop electric cars from getting cheap, long lasting, energy dense batteries. Look into it, the EV1 the gm 90's electric car had it, got over 150 miles. The small scale NIMH batteries like the eneloop have a cycle life over 2000. Cheaper than lithium and it doesn't require all that bullshit to prevent thermal runaway.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:32:46 No.706364
It takes more energy to generate the gas than is recovered by burning the gas.
-that's it

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 03:35:59 No.706367
>>706364
>imma make ice cubes in my fridge and put them in front of my fan for FREE AIR CONDITIONING!

same thinking

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 05:17:36 No.706410
Everyone of these electrolysis inventions fail to acknowledge the volume of the engine per RPM.

I've never seen any math that describes how much H is needed to enhance combustion at a specific torque curve.
I did mechanics for a short track Winston Cup team and always set the engine up on a dyno.
All these inventors talk of how much more "pep" the engine has or how much less gas they're using. Ask them what size carb needles they're using, or the injector dwell setting they changed, they look at you with cow-like faces

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 05:51:47 No.706422
>>706292
You're stupid. It takes more energy to dissociate water into H2 and O than you get back out of it you twit, and it takes a shitload of power to produce enough H2 to do anything with. By all means continue to waste your time and money though I need a good laugh.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 06:07:06 No.706428
in like 7th grade or something, I was obsessed with the idea of electrolysis used to make hydrogen to use as fuel (I learned about it from one of those scams)

So one night I took an extension cord that only had the part you plug into the wall and the other end was the bare, stripped wires. So I decided do some hydrolysis and make some Hydrogen. I fill up the sink, plugged it in, then put the end in the sink. Thinking back, I am so lucky nothing happened and that I didn't die

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 08:28:20 No.706471
>>706362
This sounds like the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard, any company that had a patent on such an efficient battery would simply get into the business of selling batteries.

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Anonymous 2014-10-04 08:59:10 No.706477
Former roommate worked on a similar design which he planned to pipe the product back into his fuel line..but which ended in spectacular failure and neighbors threatening to call the police since we were experimenting with explosive gases (brown gas (H+O2)) in a residential neighborhood.

He used a similar plate setup, but I think he may have used too much NaOH, and not enough water, as the plates were exposed at the top of the cell.

It put a huge load on the engine generated a crapton of bubbles, which quickly fouled the water brown and caused a flame to sputter through the gas outlet of the cell (copper line with a bitbof steel wool in the end).

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 09:50:44 No.706483
>>706471
Imagine you have a massive, multi-billion, world spanning industry based solely on chocolate chip cookies and literally everyone HAD to buy your cookies because it was the only viable source of food.
Now imagine you have a patent on pie making machines. Except you can't use any of your cookie making infrastructure to make these machines and you know that anyone who buys one will most likely stop buying your cookies.

Would you start selling the pie making machines or would you just keep selling the cookies, happy that no one else can start selling pie makers?

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 10:46:14 No.706497
>>706483
It obviously depends on the market situation, which is much more complicated than your simplistic example.
For example, they could sell their superior battery for other purposes and just prevent its use on stuff which directly competes with their oil business. There's a huge market for cheap, energy dense, long lasting batteries.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 12:02:08 No.706511
>>706497
That is what they do, you can get NIHM batteries, just not large enough for a car. They have ridiculous demands if you do want them, so just so that no company would risk it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries
There you lazy fuck. Chevron has control of it now. As for the edison battery, it was a lead acid company who bought it. Why would a lead acid maker want it? to keep people from buyig it. People would want a long term battery over the relatively short life of a lead acid, lead acid would also sell more because it would die quicker. Its like how car manufacturers make shit cars that cant even make it to 150k miles anymore. Planned obsolescence. They would rather sell you a shitty lead acid over and over again.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 12:10:01 No.706516
>>706511
This is why capitalism is bad. There really needs to be a law that prevents mothballing of advanced technology or any technology that is even remotely better than anything else. Patent and copyright laws are antiquated bullshit. If a company holds such a patent they should be required by law to actually produce x amount of product from it every year or give up the patent entirely where it will become public domain and no one can hold it as a patent after that.

Patent encumbrance happens way too much.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 12:12:09 No.706517
>>706483
in the us patents only good for 14 years, so it would have expired by now.

also when you patent something you have to tell people how it works and how to do it, and since they are public record anyone can see it. And anyone can build it for home use, just no commercial use so you would a ton of diy ppl all over it. I hear people talk about this tech all the time, no has actually seen it or can point to the patent. It also would have been reverse engineered and the patent worked around by another company at this point.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 12:39:57 No.706520
>>706516
Exactly my thoughts on how patents should work. You can't say you're "losing money" because someone is using a technology you own yet never use.
And the "x amount" should be reflected by the market demand for the said technology - the higher the demand, the more you need to supply.

Too bad this will never happen because it's the biggest corporations doing lobbying, not the people.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 18:35:09 No.706612
>>706511
>car manufacturers make shit cars that cant even make it to 150k miles anymore.

20 years ago most US automakers couldn't make a car that made it to 100k let alone 150k. In fact, outside of the Checker Marathon I can't think of a single US car that was designed for longevity. Japanese cars tended to do better. Some were shit but then there was some real standouts (Nissan Hardbodies, Toyota pickups, etc). Some German cares did pretty well too. But, back in the day, exactly what cars made it to 150k on a regular basis? You say 'anymore' like it was common for cars with 5 digit odometers to regularly roll them over.

As for lead acid batteries, my last vehicle made it to 180k and it was on its second battery. I'm at 50k in my current one and still on the factory battery.

>>706517
This. Patents aren't the boogie man. Nickel Iron batteries haven't been protected by patents for 3 generations. You can buy them right now if you wanted to. Want to know why no one uses them in cars? Because they cost a fuckton more then lead acids. NiMH batteries are the same deal. Those patents went away years ago. 1991? Jesus. Name one patent from that era that is still current from a technology perspective and still enforced. There ain't any. Why? 'Cause US patents run out after 20 years.

>For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, utility and plant patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the grant and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees. Design patents last 14 years from the date you are granted the patent.
Source: http://www.uspto.gov/main/faq/p120013.htm

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 19:03:28 No.706622
>>706612
Fucking a. I have a modern car and have never gapped my spark plugs. That used to be regular maintenance. My shocks and struts are good to 200k miles, not 30k. I could roll my car over and not die because the door pillars can support 4x the weight of the car.

Why do people think they used to make cars better than now? Just because you restored one once and it still works doesn't mean it is a fantastic piece. Think of all the shit that has been replaced over its life time

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 19:58:33 No.706629
>>706612
Damn. Summed up better than I could of.

Back to OP, abandon this project. Install solar system at house. Get hydrogen via electrolysis. Create ammonia using atmospheric nitrogen. Spend a lot of money to modify your car. Run said car mostly on hydrogen.
>I don't remember specifics.
>This actually works but isn't much more efficient than fossil fuels when you factor in everything. It could be if it was scaled up, but would require a massive infrastructure change.
>This comparison is called well to wheels.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 22:43:09 No.706685
>>706293
>this is a scam too
I'd like to point out that my mechanic has a 4 wheeler that runs on a jug of water feeding an electrolysis cell. The only time it uses anything else is at start -- a spritz of starter fluid into the carburetor. Runs great, if a little weak on acceleration.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 22:49:13 No.706686
>>706612
Every 90s car i have ever seen is past 150k and still kicking. My current 1993 geo metro is over 155 and runs and starts fine, does not burn oil, my old 1998 sazuki esteem was fine up to 140k miles and all that was wrong with it was a plastic grommit broke in the stick and the alternator went bad. 100 dollar fix or less for both. My brother drives a a 1999 vw jetta with 250k miles on it, my neighbor has a 1992 suburu with 460k miles on it and also has a 94 geo metro with 200k+ on it. 90s cars where fucking great on gas and lasted. I dont know a single car past 2004 that can go over 200k without major issue. Ford fusions die before 100k completely.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 22:54:04 No.706688
>>706612
apparently longer than that, they are still fighting over the patent, last it was mentioned was a possible sale in 2007, so not it doesn't run out in 20 years. Fuck look at disney.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 23:39:11 No.706705
>>706686
>geo metro
I'd just like to point out that the Geo Metro is not an American car. It is the Japanese designed Suzuki Cultus. In fact every car you listed was not American in origin. They are all Japanese save for the Jetta, which is German. So I think my statement still holds true.

>>706688
There are patents and there are companies. They aren't the same thing. Generally what happens is a company patents something and then continues to improve it as time goes on. Every significant improvement can have another patent issued for it. While the original patent expires the new ones get 20 years after their date of development just like a 'new' patent. While its perfectly fine for someone else to copy the original patent on 'Technology Mark I' they wouldn't stand a chance in the market vs the original company thats now on 'Technology Mark VIII' thats 40% more efficient and 20% cheaper, etc. Basically it makes the point moot. The original technology patent isn't good enough vs other current technologies to compete on the market and the improved versions are still covered by their patents. While that NiMH patent might have been awesome in 1991 I bet you its pretty meh for 2014, which is why no ones copied it. Not because of the patent itself, but because other technologies have continued to improve and have outpaced it.

>Fuck look at disney
Patents and copyrights are very different fish. Copyrights can last over a hundred years in some circumstances. There are some works from the 1920s that are still covered under copyright. Copyrights are pretty broken in that aspect.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 23:44:55 No.706709
>>706705
>So I think my statement still holds true.
I drive a 1997 grand prix GTP and it's still running.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-04 23:48:00 No.706711
>>706709
Forgot pic

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 02:29:03 No.706753
>>706311
I need to see this calculator you have used to turn 50,000W into 70kW...

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 02:36:52 No.706756
>>706685
it's a terrible way to store energy. until we find a way to contain the hydrogen in a not shitty way.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 04:30:08 No.706770
>>706709
>>706711
Again, like I said, there are exceptions to the rule but generally most American made vehicles didn't last above 100k. A buddy of mine has a 61 or thereabouts Studebaker Champ ranch truck hes rolled the odometer on 3 times, so its over 300k. Generally though they weren't know as being great vehicles when it came to, well, anything. Its a rusted hunk of shit (in the southwest desert, where theres no rain no less), ugly as hell and drives like you're strapped to the back of a drunk bear but its still running.

How many Pontiac Grand Prixs do you think are still on the road? Probably less than 10% of the original production run by year.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 06:38:48 No.706808
>>706753
> 50,000W into 70kW...

Typo. Thank you, autist.

FYI I was thinking about the 70kW motor in a hybrid car (hybrid escape), but realized that a smaller car would be fine on less 50kW.

Still so far off, that numerical exactitude here doesn't matter... we're into the magical world of perpetual motion machines.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 07:27:01 No.706818
>>706360
>if you want to screw the oil companies, Design a bacteria to convert blue-green algae to biodiesel.

That doesn't screw oil companies, that turns oil companies from oil miners to oil farmers.

The biggest problem with all this oil company conspiracy bullshit is that companies are there to make money. If one company designs a 100MPG carb or whatever this months flavour of bullshit is they will put it into production before their competitor can.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 07:31:13 No.706819
look into wood power op. concept produces hydrogen out of biomass by useing high heat and pressure. Its iffy and somewhat complicated. Ive heard is is somewhat clean If you filter correctly.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 08:08:57 No.706827
>>706511
That is why the Prius used NiMH batteries in 97 and the Insight in 99

The first LiPo Prius came out in 2012. The insight still uses NiMH

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 15:18:14 No.706916
>>706818
You don't get it man! The oil companies will keep the money printing perpetual energy machine designed in 1700 hidden and killed bcuz they r evil!

EVERYONE knows munks used 2 have flying ships that ran off of water and hope n than th evil Halliburton started "world war one" to distract us from taking their technology away and destroying it!
Wake up sheeple!

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-05 20:00:29 No.706979
just my two cents, Me and a Friend spent 2 developing an HHO boost system for his van.
after 10 versions and many trials we burned some concrete and made a jewlery welder.
We coulndnt get it to increase gas mileage. let alone run on it. I dont think its a scam ,but requires safe plumbing and electrical mangement. not for shade tree types.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-06 11:53:49 No.707257
>>706688
i looked up the law before i posted, it is called research.

also Disney has copyrights on there ip, not patents. completely different from a patent.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-06 13:13:09 No.707268
>>706292
Any solar panel/electrolusis system will weigh enough that the tiny amount of extra power you will get will be offset by the extra weight, resulting in no gains in efficiency.

The efficiency from electricity to hydrogen to combustion to motion is at best 10%

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-06 13:25:18 No.707269
You system will not produce any meaningful hydrogen compared to the amount of air that the engine consumes. Just stop and think about it for a minute.

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-06 13:39:09 No.707277
>>706305
Exept the part where you'd be struggling to get even 1kW off the surface of the car that you can cover with photovoltaic panels...You'd be better off recharging the battery so that the alternator doesn't have to work as hard (and eat power from the engine)

>>
Anonymous 2014-10-06 15:16:16 No.707292
>>707277
i'd guess you'd be lucky to get 250W off a 4 door car. and that would be with perpendicular sunlight.







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