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/lit/ Literature

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Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:20:13 No.6673394

[Missing image file: ]

Is she right, /lit/?


>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:23:50 No.6673402
>>6673394
...yeah
It's all self interest.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:28:28 No.6673413
HALF ROTTEN ORGANIC APPLES
STARBUCKS CAPPUCCINO
GUATEMALAN CHILDREN

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:30:01 No.6673419
>>6673394
largely
gets a little hazy around "marketed" but yes, sjw is killing the left, the reaction is coming (i hope it'll just be right in name, but left in practice)

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:35:46 No.6673435
>>6673419
>the reaction is coming (i hope it'll just be right in name, but left in practice)

Care to elaborate?

Me and some friends have been speculating about a backlash against identity politics lately. Even the few left-wing people I know who tried to pay it lip service have been very quiet about it and the crazies now have a total monopoly, it feels like the water receding before the tsunami.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:44:13 No.6673445
>>6673394
>deliberate plot by the elite, marketed to the elite

no i don't think she is

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:50:42 No.6673454
>>6673435
many ideas that are said to be "right" now, because they are anti-identity politics which has claimed the mantle of "progressivism" are actually quite anti-capitalist, which is what the old left was about. so really, i see /pol/tards, for example, as perhaps being a force which will dismantle capitalism. the difference between a podemos/syriza supporter and your average /pol/tard is not that far off. if the latter would read a bit more and see that it's a systemic problem rather than a massive conspiracy we may have lift-off. i hate (or perhaps pity) /pol/ but the anger can be useful fuel. i hope that a nazi-type reaction is out of the question at this stage, though you can never be sure, of course

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:52:14 No.6673458
I believe it's a tool of the elite to distract and divide.
Still haven't figured out to what end though...

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:54:06 No.6673462
Harvest Moon ;_;

>tfw can't marry Karen

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:55:36 No.6673467
>>6673419
It's already here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-milbank/liberalism-undoing-itself_b_7104638.html

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:56:16 No.6673469
Just look at /lit/'s favorite feminist here to get an idea:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7Zlk6GYas

>i know a lot of women of color who could be in your place right now!

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:57:50 No.6673471
>>6673458
identities require conspicuous consumption to prove belonging
consumption requires money
money requires work
work means less time to spend creating meaning
meaning is said by the elite through advertising to be buyable

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 09:58:51 No.6673472
>>6673467
i'm aware of fucking milbank
milbank does not a mass movement make

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:09:51 No.6673487
>>6673458
>Still haven't figured out to what end though...

I think it's just like during the cold war it could be said that, by design or not, groups fractioning themselves over petty theoretical differences made it easier for western governments to go unchallenged on their foreign and economic policies.

Identity politics is part of that very narrow set of concessions that our democratic apparatus under capitalism can still provide us, so it's tempting for us to surrender ourselves to it entirely. The way this comes back to fuck with us is that since this is associated with the Left, Left-wing organizations of all sorts (even those who never signed for it in the first place) are expected to be championing this model with excellence and of course, all the sects withing it are supposed to have autonomy. So a diverse group with no cohesion, no intellectual leadership, no clear aims, etc became the norm. It's a diverse, multi-ethnic army with no concern for the tactics, for strategy, a dislike for generals and officers and absolutely uncertain of what war they're even fighting.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:11:57 No.6673493
Political correctness is the new McCarthyism.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:14:45 No.6673500
>>6673394
I think identity politics started out as an earnest way to combat classicism but the elites corrupted it and changed it to the behemoth that is now. Or perhaps morons hijacked. Can't tell

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:15:54 No.6673503
>>6673472
Radical orthodoxy is the theological expression of Blue Labour (or "blue socialism" as Milbank's description of his position and a more appropriate term for the economic works of radical orthodoxy).

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:17:45 No.6673508
>>6673469
As mean and grasping as some rrrrrunt comedian.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:18:41 No.6673510
>>6673500
>>6673471
>>6673458
>>6673394
Give me a break. Identity politics aren't some elaborate scheme with an endgame concocted by "the elite". Blame the people at the Frankfurt School, the 68' riots, and third wave feminism. You leftists did this to yourselves and you have only your own movements to blame.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:21:55 No.6673515
>>6673510
Explain how the Frankfurt School created identity politics.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:22:40 No.6673516
>>6673510
But the Frankfurt School was mostly dismissive of that sort of thing and outright critical about the student riots. Learn your history, /pol/tard.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:25:43 No.6673524
>>6673510
>"the elite"

love the scare quotes

an "elite" in a class society based on antagonistic relationships of production where a few thousand own as much as the rest of us including all the media and the body of institutions required for democracy? you leftists are crazy!

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:26:35 No.6673525
>>6673435
>>6673454
What happens to all the immigrants who become possibly alienated from such a negative backlash?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:30:00 No.6673531
>>6673515
>>6673516
Guess again.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:32:15 No.6673534
>>6673531
As expected: he knows nothing about it, but someone decided for him that he should be angry at it.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:33:59 No.6673536
SJW's are

>critical of current gender/social roles
>think creating more rather than abolishing them is the solution

Explain this to me, makes no sense.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:36:13 No.6673540
>>6673531
Stop trying to be an edgy kid, everyone's been seeing these shit images for years. Back to your containment kindergarten.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:36:57 No.6673542
Find out how privileged you are, folks

http://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-privileged-are-you#.bh36K73VVM

I've been homeless, I currently live in poverty, I'm a manual laborer who has to support his brother and mother, but I still rated as "quite privileged"

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:37:40 No.6673547
>>6673510
>mainstream appropriation of a radical movements and the resulting compromise with established socio-politico-economic systems is to be blamed on the radical movement that was appropriated, even if the movement was against such systems

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:39:02 No.6673549
>>6673540
>everyone's been seeing these shit images for years.

What's your excuse for not believing it then? Are you just blind to facts?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:39:49 No.6673550
>>6673536
how does it not make sense? creating more of them still affects the 'current' roles

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:40:48 No.6673555
>>6673525
second generation are no longer immigrants. they only care about identity politics because it provides meaning. provide some other source of meaning
this isn't anti-immigrant, it's anti thinking that caring about your status as the son of immigrants or other people thinking about you caring about it is going to solve your problems rather than putting money in the hands of finance capital

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:41:00 No.6673556
>>6673536
>abolishing social/gender roles
How would this even work? For all justified criticism, allowing a multitude of self-identifications seems more friendly than just going NO YOU DO NOT HAVE SUCH TRAITS AT ALL YOU ARE ALL THE SAME. A still better solution would be the reconciliation of differences, but we don't have the kind of society for that.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:42:21 No.6673558
>>6673525
Why would they feel alienated? What replaces the void left would be, presumably, a return to class-conscious politics instead of identity-conscious politics. Immigrants, gays, women, people of color can all identify as workers in the marxian sense: people who still have to earn their money by laboring in someone else's property, as opposed to making money from said property. It would not exclude anybody, except those placed above wage-earners on the economic sphere.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:43:21 No.6673559
>>6673550
>>6673556
I guess abolishing them is the wrong way to put it. I mean, why associate with a pre-defined role in the first place?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:43:48 No.6673560
>>6673454
>i see /pol/tards, for example, as perhaps being a force which will dismantle capitalism.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:44:28 No.6673562
>>6673536
well they believe they can't simply be abolished, that the system is stacked against those with certain attributes and that this should be recognized. that being said, a non-sjw leftist would argue that a struggle for recognition is empty and foolish. being recognized? by whom? those that wish to sell you things. congrats, here's your recognition, you are now a target market

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:45:44 No.6673569
>>6673560
well not just them of course, but the disaffected ignorant of the world can be shoved into the light

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:45:45 No.6673570
>>6673549
It's concocted by someone who has a foregone conclusion and then picks the facts to fit it. Worthless. Besides it being bait that somehow a whole 4chan board falls for.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:46:20 No.6673571
>>6673549
>What's your excuse for not believing it then?
They make claims without evidence?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:46:24 No.6673572
>>6673559
>why associate with a pre-defined role in the first place?
That's not what those infamous sjws are doing though, they're potentially allowing as many particular identities as there are people. As I said, this is sub-optimal, we should just accept that people are different and that's ok, but that's not how things work in capitalism.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:51:23 No.6673581
>>6673570
>>6673571
So its just a coincidence identity politics stems from an oppressed and persecuted Jewish cabal based on ressentiment?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:54:07 No.6673584
>>6673581
dude we've read their stuff, they largely shit on this sort of thing (debatably not marcuse, but definitely adorno who is really the big deal)
see this >>6673547
and actually bother to read a book before you spout dank memes

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:54:50 No.6673586
>>6673581
Why would Jews who control the world be based on ressentiment?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:55:06 No.6673587
>>6673581
Jews have been over-represented in academia and letters since the Renaissance. You will find Jewish thought is by definition nationalist and traditionalist, and secular thought by Jewish people is across all sides of the political spectrum. Of course you don't know that because it's not in a bait image.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:55:13 No.6673588
>>6673581
Yes.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 10:55:44 No.6673589
>>6673549
>facts

That image is literally all claims and no supporting evidence

Those pictures could be of fucking Kazakh politicians from 1993 for all you've fucking proven.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:10:25 No.6673607
>>6673581
Adorno was not Jewish, neither was Pollock, and Pollock's family severed all ties with Judaism. Lowenthal's family was converted.

That image also "coincidentally" misses the mention of one of the most important Frankfurt School theorists, Jurgen Habermas, a German Protestant with a traditionalist family.

As for the rest, >>6673587

Give up, /pol/.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:10:35 No.6673608
>>6673536
It's all based on the false assumption that gender roles are a purely social construct and that if society hadn't evolved the way it had, there wouldn't be different expectations from a man versus from a woman.
Of course we already know gender roles are natural because they appear in the wild. Lions have a clear set of gender roles for example.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:13:08 No.6673613
>>6673607
>Theodor Wiesengrund Adorno was born in 1903 to relatively affluent parents in central Germany. His mother was a gifted singer, of Italian descent, and his father was a Jewish wine merchant. Adorno's partial Jewish status was to have an immeasurable effect upon his life and philosophical works.

u wot m8? literal son of a jewish merchant. can't get more cuck than that.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:13:10 No.6673614
>>6673559
There are actually some sjw's who call themselves "gender nonconformists" and who actually do want gender roles abolished.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:15:15 No.6673620
>>6673581
>frankfurt school
>identity politics
This is such nonsense it's not even funny anymore. I now challenge you to establish the origin of identity politics by citing their works. Protip: you can't.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:15:29 No.6673621
>>6673613
Judaism is passed down by the mother's side, if a Jewish boy marries a "shiksa" he's considered as having renounced his Judaism.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:16:17 No.6673626
>>6673613
You're Jewish if your mother is Jewish, it doesn't depend on the father.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:16:19 No.6673628
>>6673613
Not a jew by jewish law.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:33:47 No.6673676
>>6673536
Somebody posted this today in my facebook feed and it genuinely got a bunch of people claiming their "flag" was missing.

I'm pretty liberal about what people do with their genitals but this identity politics shit has become ludicrous.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:37:51 No.6673689
>>6673676
Well all those things are definitiely real, or at least correctly reflect the experience of certain people at certain points in time, maybe even öermanently. If tjere's anything wrong with it, it's that people make it into an identity, with its own symbols and all, something you should be proud of, instead of jjst your own condition in which you try to find happiness.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:38:10 No.6673691
>>6673510
>new left hijacked the left movement
>we did it to ourselves
No, you middle class cunts came and fucked it up

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:43:46 No.6673699
>>6673510
>blame the people at the Frankfurt School
>for identity politics
They were explicitly anti-identitarian, how does this even make sense to you?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:45:10 No.6673704
>>6673689
I agree that is what I was getting at. Of course they are real experiences, but they don't require a label or fucking flag. Hell I'd even say one of those is composite of my experience.

Building your identity around the minutiae of your sexual preferences is ridiculous and completely unnecessary.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:50:15 No.6673719
>>6673704
>Building your identity around the minutiae of your sexual preferences is ridiculous and completely unnecessary
Sort of, but I believe thos only reflects a much lqrger problem, namely the legitimizing power of identities. You can no longer say, I just feel like this, you have to say, I feel like this because that is the general kind of person I am and nobody has the right to question any of it. No matter what you do, it has to be tied to such a construct in lrder to be considered legitimate.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 11:53:18 No.6673732
>>6673704
i doubt they're "building their identity around it" just because someone compiled a list of different types of asexuality. it's something someone can use to explain themselves to someone else.

as for the list itself that's just because they're teenagers/young adults on the internet. that's what they do since they have too much time on their hands. it doesn't really say much about 'identity politics' as a whole, however.

infographics aren't really politics.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:08:12 No.6673917
>>6673536
What I don't get is that sense of entitlement to anything beyond basic respect


Theres so many idiots claiming people should give them jobs because theyre gay or have a vagina or are trans. Not because they're good though, but simply because of how they identify.

What I really dislike is the idea of thoughtcrime, in that there should be bannable speech or expression.

I just don't get the "empowerment" and further segregation of men and women, when I thought it was about being seen as equals. I dont get why people should get a prize just for doing something and being a girl or being trans or whatever you are.

like really just be good at something and prove your worthiness rather than demand that everyone think you're needed

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:12:28 No.6673928
This is how I was taught about immigration(American)

Immigrants aren't supposed to identify as immigrants. They are by and large supposed to give up their past identity in exchange for a new one. Example being a Spanish immigrant to Canada. They would no longer be Spanish, but Canadian and are expected to conform to the Canadian culture and standards. They are still free to have customs and traditions, but shouldn't avoid assimilating by living in cultural ghettos or demanding their culture be part of mainstream culture.

I just don't understand

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:12:57 No.6673931
>>6673917
what do you normally read?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:13:03 No.6673932
>>6673917
>Theres so many idiots claiming people should give them jobs because theyre gay or have a vagina or are trans
Literally no one does this. At best, they'll say the reason they're not getting a job is discrimination, not lack of skill. And if that was indeed the case, their demand of getting a better treatment would be legitimate. This has, obviously, little to do with an actual critique of capitalism, and more with wanting a better lot within it for yourself. Which, however, is a perfectly reasonable goal.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:14:45 No.6673935
>>6673928
What do you not understand?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:17:42 No.6673945
>>6673928
well in canada to please a ukranian lobby in the 70s and 80s, they adopted a "multicultural" policy so this doesn't apply as much as outsiders think it does
english canadian culture has basically been killed by the developments

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:18:56 No.6673947
>>6673732
It may just be speculation, but...

It is in essence identity building. One will claim to be part of X group(or in this case, some exact sexuality feelings). However, what purpose does this serve? Explaining to someone something by using the the word, cupiosexual, or something similar is one thing, but to say "I'm cupiosexual" is defining oneself as that.

It just seems like people are making a state of being or passing emotion into a permanent or fluid identity.

In short, special-snowflake syndrome. These terms for types of asexuality are adjectives, not groups. and yet there are people who say they are part of these groups.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:24:43 No.6673964
>>6673932
Perhaps I'm just a bit salty. I deal with this frequently as a Comp. Sci major.

"Minorities" are given first pick on many internships and positions. Which throws the concept of merit out the window. This kindof policy has good intentions, but its failing miserably. Many incompetent people are shoehorned into positions. I've met many women who literally could not program yet get internships. This is not to say theyre really discriminated. There are many serious female CS majors, but they don't apply for the special treatment, and are in the same boat as the rest of us.

Genuine discrimination(systematic) or just general workplace abuse is something I can stand behind. Definitely reasonable. I just experience this a lot and have grown weary as many others have

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:27:18 No.6673969
>>6673932
this.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:27:37 No.6673970
>>6673935
I don't understand disagreement, forgot to add that.

I don't understand entitlement of immigrants to be catered to, when they gave up citizenship elsewhere for their new host country.

>>6673945
as far as I know, it has more of a "cultural mosaic" policy rather than a "melting pot" policy.

From the places I've been in Canada, it just leads to segregated communities(Especially Vancouver, with Surrey, Richmond, North Van, etc)

There seems to be underlying animosity. But perhaps not, as I was only a traveler

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:27:47 No.6673971
>>6673964
>"Minorities" are given first pick on many internships and positions. Which throws the concept of merit out the window
You're misrepresenting the reasoning behind it: they are given preference because prior discrimination is thought to have thrown merit out of the window. You can say this is unreasonable, or inaccurate or whatever, but the intention is inherently meritocratic.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:29:42 No.6673978
>>6673947
>to say "I'm cupiosexual" is defining oneself as that.

that doesn't mean that this form of sexuality makes up the entirety of their identity

>It just seems like people are making a state of being or passing emotion into a permanent or fluid identity.

i think that's because these are just kids on the internet. it's that time of life when people are trying to define themselves, just this group of people has found these terms that they think better describe them. it's not really part of identity politics though.

>In short, special-snowflake syndrome.

well they are young. young people think highly of themselves, their intelligence, their taste, etc (e.g. 4chan)

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:32:28 No.6673985
>>6673676
now THIS is spooky.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:33:11 No.6673987
>>6673971
I understand. But at what point does this end?

I feel it would be demeaning, and just insulting to receive a position, not because I was good at what I did, but simply because I had a vagina. or was black.

I would guess that this sortof policy would be revoked now, especially that there are many "minorities" that obtain these positions without assistance, provided they are qualified. Two enormous tech corps even have women as CEO's, who got the job due to skill(AMD, Yahoo).

Perhaps I have a misunderstanding of meritocracy, but my thoughts were achievements/skills were more important than personal attributes, gender, creed, etc.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:33:14 No.6673988
>>6673978
Different anon here, I have sort of drawn a bigger picture of this here:
>>6673719
What would you consider actual identity politics?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:33:47 No.6673989
>>6673394
The problem is that SJWs raise legitimate issues. Trans advocacy is important, widespread awareness of gender issues is important, racism is illogical and damaging to many people. These are all common and reasonable stances to take.

The problem in the extremism and shallowness of their execution is that they are doing more to damage to those causes than help them. Identity politics is, quite simply, childish and simplistic, it doesn't allow for nuance and it has a tendency to swing to ideological brinkmanship.

The average educated adult can see this. People know SJWs go too far. Even left-wing communities openly shrink away from any association with these groups, including feminist and trans ones. They know the image can't sell, and that the SJW mentality doesn't float outside the bubble.

SJWs have legitimised their opponents. Christians, right-wing groups, centre groups, they all gain appeal simply bu being explicitly against identity politics, and they will grow because of it. If they're smart about it they could become popular within youth culture.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:34:50 No.6673994
>>6673978
It implies that it is part of their identity, not merely a state of being.

I suppose perhaps it is just kids being kids, but it seems that there are people that take this seriously.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:36:54 No.6674004
>>6673964
>"Minorities" are given first pick on many internships and positions.

the data does not support this claim. i don't say you're lying, but your experience is not reflected in the actual job numbers. maybe observer bias?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:38:05 No.6674009
>>6673994
idk i see the point in explaining your sexuality to others since sexuality plays such a major part in socialisation (especially youth). also they want to avoid being mistaken as hetero or cis or whatever since that's the norm

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:38:42 No.6674011
>>6673989
>Trans advocacy is important

ayy lmao

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:38:53 No.6674012
>>6673987
>but my thoughts were achievements/skills were more important than personal attributes, gender, creed, etc
That's the thing, the assumption is that this meritocracy usually excludes minorities, and thus to establish an actual meritocracy, you have to enforce proportional representation. There's a bunch of stuff wrong with that, e.g, wether you want to accurately represent the population at large, or the demographic working in the field. And yes, even when you can be objectively certain that discrimination is no longer business practice in the field, the preferential treatment intended to counterbalance it may continue, as the people benifiting from it are incentivized to keep it running.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:39:10 No.6674013
>>6673989
>trans advocacy is important

I was taking a shower today and thought about this. Gender reassignment surgery is awful. I can't imagine becoming a surgical experiment. It would be like cutting off half my arm and sewing fingers at the elbow.

Wanting that cannot be a healthy mindstate like holy shit

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:40:48 No.6674017
>>6674004 (You)

more detailed

source for both:
https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-24.pdf

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:41:10 No.6674019
>>6674013
being trans and wanting to 'look the part' of a sex because of societal norms are two different things

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:42:12 No.6674022
>>6674013
>typical mind fallacy
>applied to people who are universally recognized as being atypical
Jeez, get your shit together.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:49:11 No.6674036
>>6674004
Does non-equity in numbers mean that there is a distinct exclusion policy? The data shows a disparity, but should there be an artificial parity? A level playing field is something to advocate, but the data leaves out how many minorities actually enter these fields. If the STEM dept. has 78% males, you could reasonably claim there is not many women in STEM jobs because there is not many women in STEM training.

I guess a simpler way to say it is: All conditions equal, would there be a disparity?

A better policy would be pushing whatever supposedly underrepresented group at a young age into studying that subject. Even then, its discriminatory because it just pertains to whatever group this is. How would you solve it without segregation?(not entirely expecting an answer, I don't know either).

>>6674012
I dont know if I could argue that minorities are systematically excluded at a rate that is worth noting. And if there are few professional minorities, there would of course be few minorities in those professions.

The real question is why are there few minorities in these professions, if it isn't discrimination?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:51:50 No.6674040
>>6674022
Its just an observation. I used to support this until this thought. I feel like I'm enabling an anorexic person by supporting gender reassignment.

They're free to get it, I suppose. and free to be trans, but Im just stating my confusion
>>6674019
What does trans mean then, how does one define that? Serious question, merely trying to learn

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:54:37 No.6674046
>>6674036
>The real question is why are there few minorities in these professions, if it isn't discrimination?
THAT'S RACIST!
not really, there may be a fuckton of reasons. Still, I do think discrimination may be one of the factors, even if it only works indirectly, e.g. a parent who has experienced discrimination discouraging their offspring, a sub-culture shaped partly by discrimination doing the same on a larger scale, etc.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:56:49 No.6674052
>>6674040
>I used to support this until this thought
So, you used to support a group until you realized you're not part of that group and wouldn't want to be? Someone give this man a medal.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 13:58:59 No.6674054
>>6674036
>The data shows a disparity, but should there be an artificial parity?

i don't know. what i do know is that there are no major pushes towards such an artificial parity, at least not in STEM fields in the US between 1970 and 2011. pic related, it's from the same pdf. white STEM jobs are 10% down while asian ones are 10% up. no change for the other skin colors, and that's in thirty fucking years.

what i'm saying is that your earlier claim
>"Minorities" are given first pick on many internships and positions.
is not true. either your perception is selective, or the place you're in is very special.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:02:00 No.6674064
>>6674054

correction: FORTY (fucking) years. polite sage

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:02:59 No.6674065
>>6674052
I used to support a group, until I realized that it may very well be enabling a mental disorder. Would you support "trans-abled"? where people saw off their legs, or solder their spinal cord so they can't walk, or use their arms and legs? Or would you refer them to a psychiatrist for counseling?

Theres a point where something just seems absurd, and in this case, its mutilating yourself.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:06:57 No.6674070
>>6674054
Then what is causing this? Is it perhaps a certain groups culture, not placing emphasis on STEM? or is it systematic?

What is the most defining factor, and something that could very well be improved without impeding on individual rights?

these are kind big questions, I apologize. I don't expect a full writeup or essay.

I guess it still stands, *should* there be an artificial parity, especially if there supposedly isn't one now?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:07:25 No.6674071
>>6674065
someone buy this man some books

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:07:34 No.6674072
>>6674065
I think you need to u derstand tbat reassignment surgery, the kind where you get rid of your dick, is the exception rather than the rule. It will usually take a long time with gradual steps and hormones and counseling until this final stage is considered.
And the trans-abled thing is a false equivalence, no one in their right mind wants to be a cripple. A lot of people in their right mind want to be women though, namely that half of the human race that already are women.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:10:44 No.6674077
>>6674070
Different anon here, we don't really know, there's too many factors at work, some of them, without a doubt, are past and present discrimination. Thing is, as a society we love easy answers we can enact in easy measures, such as preferential treatment.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:12:17 No.6674081
>>6674070

dude. did you actually read what i wrote? i was just disproving your hilarious claim. i don't want to discuss an artificial parity because there is none, regardless of how strong you'd like to believe otherwise. read the census pdf that i linked and learn. there is also data about women in STEM jobs in there.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:13:47 No.6674082
>>6674072
I have no issue with what are more colloquially known as traps.

Gender reassignment isn't just male to female either. Women also apparently want to be men.

My question is, would therapy and counseling on coping with a distorted identity and self image be better, or would transitioning via artificial hormone replacements help them cope?

This is something I don't know the answer to.

>half that already are women
What was the point for this. I dont know if I implied nobody wants to be female

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:14:59 No.6674086
>>6674070
People who do well are taught to do well. They have parents who handle ever level of their academic development since children. They take care of college decisions. They at worst tell them all the right steps to make towards getting a job, but usually provide them a means in terms of internships and networking. The most a middle class kid has to do throughout their first 22 years is say "OK" and put in the work handed to them.

In better than most scenarios for blacks and immigrants a kid is left with this perpetual, ineffective advice and this only to guide them and help them: "Study hard enough and be smart enough and you'll succeed," said by a parent just getting off their first job and going to their second.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:17:03 No.6674092
>>6674082
>This is something I don't know the answer to
Here's something you do know the answer to: do trans people want their desire to transition be therapeutically cured, instead of fulfilled?
>I dont know if I implied nobody wants to be female
You didn't. The fact that wanting to be female is normal is the reason transitioning to one is ok, while transitioning to a cripple isn't.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:17:47 No.6674096
>>6674081
Its simply data though. You can correlate all you want, but that doesn't make it a valid assertion. Perhaps my university has a rare policy, and thus is an exception, and can be ignored.

I don't see why you won't respond to the idea of artificial parity. Ignoring my anecdote, would you at least hypothetically consider what *might* occur?

And as more of digression, what would Affirmative Action be regarded as then? if not an attempt at artificial parity?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:21:16 No.6674103
>>6673493
ding ding ding we have a winrar!

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:22:54 No.6674109
>>6674096
>I don't see why you won't respond to the idea of artificial parity
Different anon here : because the data reveals that there is no such thing as an artificial paritiy. It shows that the existing disparity has hardly changed at all.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:23:36 No.6674113
>>6674092
We can draw similar conclusions to other forms of body dismorphia. In the case of anorexia. The person in question obviously wants to be their ideal, should we as a society, help them cope with their thoughts, or encourage them to binge/purge or restrict? What about dismorphia, where the ideal is a huge muscley form? Should we provide counseling on coping with this unhealthy ideal, or should we encourage steroid use?(if the ideal is out of natural range)

These aren't false equivalency, they're very related to gender dismorphia in that they all fall under the terms of body dismorphia, so don't try to write them off as such.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:25:16 No.6674117
>>6674109
Maybe my phrasing is poor. I'm referring to an attempt for parity. Should that be something to strive for?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:25:35 No.6674119
>>6674113
Wanting to be extremely thin or extremely muscular is unreasonable. Wanting to be something as ordinary as female isn't. Wrap your mind around it, come on, this is getting boring.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:27:01 No.6674126
>>6674086
How is one to solve or at least alleviate that then, if the problem lies in upbringing?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:27:09 No.6674128
>>6674117
Since we do not know the exact reasons for disparity: maybe. But since we haven't made any significant moves towards an artificial parity, this seems besides the point.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:31:58 No.6674142
>>6674119
Gender dismorphia is still body dismorphia, in this case, an ideal that is almost entirely unachievable outside of modern medicine. Something, that 50 years ago, all other factors considered equal, would be unreasonable due to its impossibility.

I'm not arguing for hate, or asserting they shouldn't exist. I'm questioning, more in theory, should this be looked at in a different light? Are we, as a society, doing the right thing and looking out for our fellow man?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:33:37 No.6674146
>>6674128
Thank you for your time anyway, I guess in the end any response would have just been speculation.

Still, interesting nonetheless

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:34:53 No.6674150
>>6674142
It is not a dysmorphia, it is a gender dysphoria. You evidently don't know what you're talking about.
And is your argument then, we need better technology for reassignment? All trans people would agree.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:37:44 No.6674160
>>6673394
Yes, its like conspiracy theorists. Try suggesting that the middle east crisis is extremely profitable and they will look at you like you said nasa never went to the moon.
Same process here.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:37:46 No.6674161
>>6674150
Sorry for mistyping, its very early where I am.

You still haven't answered the question. Should one be counseled for coping with dysphoria? or should they be encouraged to transition?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:40:55 No.6674165
>>6674161
>Should one be counseled for coping with dysphoria? or should they be encouraged to transition?
Depends on the person's own wish, I guess. Should women get breast implants if they so want, or should they get counseling to dissuade them?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:43:13 No.6674171
>>6674096
>And as more of digression, what would Affirmative Action be regarded as then? if not an attempt at artificial parity?

alright, since you're so eager to know it, here's what i perceive: yes, AA is a concept which aims to lessen disparities. "artificial parity" is a phrase that you brought into this discussion, and i wouldn't use it, because i believe that the disparities have been created by processes which are no less "artificial". calling it parity instead of artificial parity offers you a different approach to this problem, and i believe that you should carefully think about it and come to your own conclusions.

but, and that is much more important, it seems that the concept of AA only exists on paper and that it's applied far less than you would think. i believe that it is mostly a simple PR strategy for the companies/institutions involved. see also: greenwashing.

to give some context for why i believe this, you should skim this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States

you learn that AA laws relating to race as well as gender date back to as early as the sixties. but what have we learned from the census data? Exactly. and that is what
>>6674109
said, as well.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:45:21 No.6674178
>>6674165

>Depends on the person's own wish, I guess

Why should their delusion be indulged? What if we had a way to cure them of them of the dysphoria without any intrusive procedures?

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:46:28 No.6674180
>>6674165
I'd argue false equivalency but i'd rather this be more constructive.

and as a side note, breast reduction and enlargement has more purposes than vanity. although not often used for it.

I'd also argue the severity is less than gender reassignment. but perhaps you're right, maybe it isn't.

This isn't mainly to argue with you, and more for learning. I believe that one should have the right to get whatever surgery, and do almost whatever they'd like, especially if victimless.

but, should someone in obvious distress, be counseled, or should they be encouraged?

an even less equivalent comparison would be assisted suicide. Its their choice, but should that choice be honored and encouraged, or should they be given counseling?

I don't have any answers, just looking for other perspectives

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:49:21 No.6674190
>>6674171
Thank you for the information. I'll have a lovely afternoon of research.

I'd still argue that the Census data is still merely data, and cannot entirely explain it. but I suppose it may be worth noting possible correlations as you've mentioned.

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:58:16 No.6674224
>>6674126
Full communism

>>
Anonymous 2015-06-11 14:58:25 No.6674226
>>6674178
different anon here, who is to judge what needs curing and what doesn't? you should really try to read up on the history of mental illnesses, their definitions and the authorities on those definitions.







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