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/tg/ Traditional Games

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Anonymous 2013-10-21 21:34:07 No.27866561

[Missing image file: image.jpg]

What are some good pathfinder builds? I'll share a couple that I have found.

http://elderwyrm.com/synthesistsummoner.html

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nix8?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Guide


>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 21:46:32 No.27866791

[Missing image file: The new speaker.jpg]
>>27866561
>Synth

Don't be that guy. Find out what role your party needs filled, then find a cool build that can do it, if your adamant about not enjoying building a character for yourself.

Try a druid maybe?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 21:50:58 No.27866867

[Missing image file: 1377704271144.png]
>>27866561

Just fuckin' tell us what role needs to be filled in your party and we'll figure something out.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 22:25:32 No.27867524
>>27866791

>Synth

Not played with one of those before, whats "that guy" about it? Sounds like a fun idea.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 22:33:27 No.27867690
how is Alchemist Preservationist? can I go full on pokemon with it?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:40:30 No.27869009
bump?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:44:18 No.27869083
>>27867524
There's some loopholes in the rules as written that allow you to make an overpowered character.
The affects aren't part of the rules as intended but until a designer puts out a new book fags will tote around builds they found on boards and brag about them like they've found hidden nazi gold.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:45:39 No.27869115
>>27866561
>look a character that's broken at level 20!
>look at me! LOOK AT ME!
get your validation elsewhere, there are parents for that

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:47:14 No.27869132
>>27869083
>There's some loopholes in the rules as written that allow you to make an overpowered character.
No there aren't. Synth is weaker than the actual Summoner in practice.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:48:21 No.27869154
>>27869115
Capstone fallacy isn't a thing against builds that stay ahead of the curve the entire time.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:49:26 No.27869175
>>27869083
There are no loopholes. Exploiting them with a GM who has half a brain gets you smacked down or banned from the table.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:53:08 No.27869236
Synthesist summoner is really good. Up until 5th level.

After 5th level the fighter will quickly outstrip him in AC, and by 7the he will outstrip him in damage, and by 15th the fighter will be more versatile than the synthesist because the synthesist needs time to buff himself and worse, can't cast anything worth casting and be a combat monster at the same time. And then some enemy caster hits him with a banish and tops that with dimensional anchor, and he's immediately fucked.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:53:26 No.27869247
There is a reason the synth is banned in tournament play...

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:55:38 No.27869297
>>27869236
>After 5th level the fighter will quickly outstrip him in AC
What the fuck kind of Synth have you been playing?
>and by 7the he will outstrip him in damage
Only if they're going above WBL. There's nothing special about 7th level for a Fighter.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:57:29 No.27869332
>>27869247
Because they take place at lower levels. At lower levels, synthesist is one of the most powerful classes in almost every aspect. It evens out eventually but at lower levels, they're ridiculous.

>>27869297
Wealth by level is a character creation guideline, not play guideline.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:57:56 No.27869343
>>27869247
Because it allows for you to replace your physical stats.

That's it. It's actually worse than the base summoner, it just happens to be better than most melee, which means nothing in a game where melee are shit.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:58:40 No.27869365
My all time favorite build?

Rogue archetype Charlatan.
You basically get the ability to use diplomacy or bluff on an entire city, at level 3.
So many BBEGs ruined because the local populace believes them to be something they are not.

Don't like the king? Boom. In a week's time and a successful roll, and the whole town thinks he's illegitimate, or a paedophile. Uprising commence.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-21 23:58:59 No.27869373
>>27869332
>Wealth by level is a character creation guideline, not play guideline.
Wrong.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:00:24 No.27869405
>>27869373
Elaborate

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:00:43 No.27869414
>>27866561
What I would suggest:
Bard, and find a way for you and the GM to fix Versatile Performance. As it stands now, you gimp yourself being good at what you're supposed to be good at (social situations and playing your instruments). My suggestion would be a bonus equal to 1/2 the points from the Perform skill. So if you have +4 Bluff and +4 Perform(Act), you get a +6 bonus when making a bluff (+4 natural skill, +2 Versatile Performance). Pick up a bow and focus on supporting combat through spells or archery. Get wands for every spell you would need but don't have in your list.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:01:44 No.27869435
>>27869332
>Wealth by level is a character creation guideline, not play guideline.
>implying white room theorycrafting is not more representative of gameplay than actual gameplay

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:01:52 No.27869438
>>27869373
Don't argue, boy. Everyone who has played any tabletop game knows that those standards are thrown out the window the INSTANT character creation ends and varies campaign-to-campaign to the point where it breaks to pieces faster than CR.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:03:19 No.27869473
>>27869405
How is it not fucking obvious to you?

If you aren't using the guideline in play, the creation guideline in case someone else comes in late is worthless.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:03:20 No.27869474
The most satisfying thing I ever played in pathfinder was a human ranger that had taken campaign appropriate favored enemies that was point-buy generated to be balanced for both melee and ranged attacking. Weapon style was archery for free feats, basic feats from leveling were taken for a 2hander melee combat with a greatsword.

I was never once trivialized in what I set out to do except for times when it was clear another character was meant to shine, but I did not lag behind. I could scout, interact with the world through scrollcasting and rationalizations, and hold my own in every single fight we got in without once taking the spotlight fully off the party.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:03:31 No.27869481
>>27869438
Boy? When's the last time you seen a boy with a ten inch duck, and a bucket of nuts?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:04:30 No.27869501
>>27869332
At any rate, there's still nothing special about level 7 for a Fighter that makes their DPR balloon. 8th gets them GWF and an extra -1 on Power Attack, neither of which are all that great.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:04:53 No.27869508
>>27869481
>duck

Fuck kindle browser

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:10:56 No.27869608
>>27869501
That -3 turns into a +9 on power attack with a two handed weapon at 8th level, and considering that most people will take Improved Crit at 8th, with something like a falchion or an elven curve blade for the 15-20 crit, I'd say your assessment on their damage potential is pretty much wrong. At the same time, your synthesist is still only large, has a shit BAB and not much in the way of strength bonuses the fighter hasn't already outstripped him in, and is either casting spells OR attacking, not both.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:13:56 No.27869648
>>27869474
Adding a bit more that I thought of. It was never overpowering at any point that I remember. I got an animal companion at one point that was a great tool and thematic to the setting, the ranger spell list is varied, their skill list large. Appropriate favored enemies meant I was not only powerful but also motivated in my GM's campaign world against the right things. Being able to swap between melee and ranged on whim was incredibly freeing for tactical play too. It was really just... satisfying.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:16:48 No.27869692
>>27869365
Only if your Dm let's you do this.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:18:44 No.27869726
I've wanted to create a trickster illusionist since forever. Anyone have good templates for such a character?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:20:01 No.27869756
>>27869473
>>27869438
>>27869435
>>27869405
My players consider themselves lucky if they have one person's "expected" wealth between them.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:21:34 No.27869777
>>27869365
Except the GM can say "nope, they don't believe you." Period. It's written directly into the skill.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:26:20 No.27869879
>>27869608
Improved Critical is not a large DPR boost until very lategame for a Fighter due to their capstone. Assuming you have +7 to STR, a +3 Falchion, and Weapon Spec, the difference is not that big against something it hits on a 2(31.6825 to 35.815) and gets lower the lower your hit chance gets(at hitting on a 7 or better, it goes from 23.345 to 26.39 - 11 or above? 16.675 to 18.85).

I'm not buying this.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:27:33 No.27869905
>>27869756
Your players should tell you to go fuck yourself for being retarded and not understanding why magic item proliferation is needed.

It's not because spellcasters need them to do anything.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:31:55 No.27869982
>>27869692
>>27869777
And this is why social characters will never be good, while Fighters can scream "FOR TEH EMPRAH" all day and wizards can literally alter reality and no one bats an eye.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:33:21 No.27870012
>>27869905
>why magic item proliferation is needed.
No it's not. Stop talking about things you know nothing about. If you want masses of disposable gear to be handed to you, play a JRPG instead.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:37:24 No.27870085
>>27870012
>Stop talking about things you know nothing about.
You first, retard. You don't even understand why WBL exists.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:38:10 No.27870107

[Missing image file: 1377390586481.jpg]
Help me out here, pathfinder types. Is it just me or is the summoner slightly unbalanced?

I was playing one of those pathfinder society game with me as a cavalier, another guy as a summoner and a few other guys.

Combat comes around and the summoner summons a whole dance party of skeletons, each with a fuck ton of attacks. Meanwhile all I can do is hit people with my sword and ride a horse too big to be of any use in the map.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it does seem a bit unfair

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:38:21 No.27870111
>>27870012
Don't bother. He's not played anything but 3e. He's been fattened and spoiled on his CRs, wealth by level, and unlimited supply of +infinity swords, class choices, and spells. Not once has he braved the setting of Dark Sun, slammed a weapon into a monster only for his critical hit to do zero damage, or have every saving throw be a 15% chance of success. If that.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:39:48 No.27870148
>>27870107
>Is it just me or is the summoner slightly unbalanced?
They're definitely better than PF melee are due to action economy.

Especially if you have a DM going turbofaggot like >>27870012 where your melee classes get no gear so the Summoner gets to walk all over them even more than usual.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:41:01 No.27870171
>>27870085
You're such a sheep. You only follow it because it's scribbled down in the book. You're the kind of person that would scream at the DM and ragequit if you weren't getting the wealth you were 'entitled' to, and scream that the "challenge rating system" assumes certain wealth.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:41:44 No.27870187
>>27870111
>Not once has he braved the setting of Dark Sun
Wrong. I played Dark Sun before 3E even came out. It adapts like shit to 3E in every way; level adjustment is a shit rule and many of the DS races have it, you need magic items more than anything in 3E and you're not going to get them, and classes don't work like they used to.
>or have every saving throw be a 15% chance of success.
Sorry, 2E saving throws had a much higher chance of success than 3E's.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:44:12 No.27870225
>>27869879
Calculate out the damage potential of a correctly constructed synthesist. With his +6 BAB, the eidolon's base strength is at best 16, moving up to 19 at 8th level. He spends 4 point into large, for his +8 (total now 27 for a +8 strength bonus) and -1 attack bonus (meaning his attack bonus is now the same as as the fighter you gave as an example, not including the fighter's magic weapons). Even with time to cast self buffs, the synthesist is still not going to catch up to the attack values and damage potential of a bog standard fighter with equivalent wealth.

A 25% chance to double your damage Power attack damage is significant in comparison to not being able to do so at all.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:44:45 No.27870238
>>27870171
>You only follow it because it's scribbled down in the book.
It's because the math on the monsters expects it. When you're literally lacking -10 to hit, you're not only never going to hit anything at high levels, you're never going to do any damage to them because you can't Power Attack.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:45:15 No.27870249
>>27869905
Hey....did you know a GM can lower the CR of an encounter to reflect the fact the players have less magical equipment?

Shocking, I know.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:46:01 No.27870261
>>27869726
Gnome illusionist wizard. Invest in illusion spells, it's not that hard. Just take traits that give you slight of hand and bluff instead of other stuff.

>>27866561
A dex/wis agile maneuvers flowing monk going into improved ki throw and reposistion and taking crane style becomes a surprisingly effective tank. Even if you wind up with few points to put in con.

Be warned though if you go this route, you will have trouble dealing any serious damage at later levels without magical items. Then again, I don't have to worry about it, because when I suplex the giant our ninja proceeds to make the prone sickened and flanked giant's insides his outsides.


I'm building up my ki throw to where I can flip a huge iron golem. I figure that's about the equivalent of suplexing a train locomotive. Then my monk's life will be complete.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:46:19 No.27870265
>>27870238
So...you recalculate the CR levels to compensate. This isn't hard, people.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:46:39 No.27870270
>>27870012
the WBL guide is used by the GM as a guide for when and how much loot (in magic items and cash) to give to the players. The reason this is included in the DMG is because the math behind rising levels in 3.5e assumes the characters are buying magical items, usually out of the Big 6.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a

>Required to Play. Characters simply can’t compete against their foes without enhancing their attack rolls, Armor Class, and saving throws. Every one of the “Big Six” items directly improve your character’s ability to roll high.

By not adhering to the WBL guide and giving your players the magic items they are supposed to have by way of the rules of the game, you aren't following the rules, and, I daresay, you're playing it wrong.

Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:46:46 No.27870272
>>27870238
Unless the GM, you know, lowers the CR of a combat.

Shocking idea, I know. It's like the GM can tailor the encounters to reflect the player's capabilities or something. How horrifying.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:47:38 No.27870287
>>27870249
Did you know that that's a shit method of handling the problem and that some classes are unaffected by having no magical items?

The Paladin might as well not even fucking care after mid levels.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:47:51 No.27870292
>>27870270
......

"These rules are guidelines, and if you feel like changing something, change it."

No, YOU are playing it wrong.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:48:45 No.27870311
>>27870107
Pathfinder is not balanced. If you can cast spells, you are immediately more powerful than someone who cannot. If you can summon something, you immediately have a monster usually on-par or better than the fighter in your pocket.

Doesn't help that you were playing the cavalier, arguably the least effective of the PF classes, alongside rogues and monks.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:48:48 No.27870312

[Missing image file: That is not okay.jpg]
>>27870187
>Switching from 2e to broken-as-fuck-unbalanced-caster-edition-3e
>Playing said broken-as-fuck-unbalanced-caster-edition-3e at high levels
>Getting this frustrated and upset over someone playing a game you will never be within hundreds or even thousands of miles of

>>27870270
>Required to Play. Characters simply can’t compete against their foes without enhancing their attack rolls, Armor Class, and saving throws. Every one of the “Big Six” items directly improve your character’s ability to roll high.
This is Wizards saying "We made the balance of the game so shitty, you can't fight by your own power and instead have to rely on sparkly shiny magical weapons instead"

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:49:08 No.27870319
>>27870292
Just because it says you can change it doesn't mean it's a good idea to change it or that your changes won't cause problems.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:49:28 No.27870328
>>27870287
Oh no. How horrible. If you don';t give magic items to the ones that don't need it, and do give them to character who do need it....everyone might still have fun. Oh god, the horror.

Some people actually have brains and can think outside the little boxes you seem to try and cram everything into.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:50:14 No.27870342
>>27870238
No, the math on the monsters expects the DM to have a fucking brain.

I have been quietly watching this argument between you two chucklefucks and have decided to tag in.

Wealth by level is a GUIDELINE. It is not a requirement. This is because of Rule 1.

The DM is not required to do anything other than provide the players with a good time, that may result in him having to modify the stats of monsters on the fly, up or down.

The fact is the DM can let you kill a goblin that happens to have just won the lottery. That's like 9 million x standard loot. It might be fun for your group, because the DM is following rule 1. The DM's word is law, nothing else.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:50:29 No.27870347
>>27870292
>"These rules are guidelines, and if you feel like changing something, change it."
If you could find a page-quote for this, that would be great, because right now I just see a terrible DM.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:50:42 No.27870351
>>27870328
>If you don';t give magic items to the ones that don't need it, and do give them to character who do need it....
The Rogue and the Fighter still need more than you're splitting between them. God forbid if you have three melee classes in the same party or you have 5 people.

You are retarded. Get cancer.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:51:01 No.27870359
>>27870319
Just because the rules say things, doesn't mean some people can't change them effectively and still allow everyone in the group to have fun. It's some weird, novel concept that hurts people's brains on /tg/ but it happens in table top games all across the world all the time.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:51:33 No.27870375
>>27870312
>This is Wizards saying "We made the balance of the game so shitty, you can't fight by your own power and instead have to rely on sparkly shiny magical weapons instead"
I totally agree. It's a terrible game. Doesn't mean the shitty balance doesn't require the shiny magic items for the characters to remain effective past level 3.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:52:32 No.27870395
>>27870292
the dm is god. argue at your own risk.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:52:32 No.27870397

[Missing image file: NOT 3.5 NOT INTERESTED.jpg]
>>27870312
>Switching from 2e to broken-as-fuck-unbalanced-caster-edition-3e
You seem to be implying that I wanted to do that rather than having no groups because everyone I played with stopped playing because of these guys right here.

Not that it mattered in the end. Everyone started playing again after 4E came out.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:52:54 No.27870400
>>27870342
>The DM's word is law, nothing else.
you seem like a bad DM. in a shared storytelling game, you want a single person to have total control over both the rules and narrative? wtf man

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:53:57 No.27870420
>>27870395
>the dm is god. argue at your own risk.
how's that neckbeard? still got some pop-tart stuck in it from this morning?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:54:17 No.27870427
>>27870347
see >>27870342


Have you never even opened a fucking DMG.

THE FIRST RULE OF D&D

The Game/Dungeon Master has the right to veto anything any player says, he has the right to change any rule or make up his own, he need not explain why he choses to do these things.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:54:47 No.27870437
>>27870311
PF Cavaliers are literally only good for charge monkeying and that's so fucking easy to stop in practice that it renders the class WORSE than a Monk.

I mean, Monks at least have one or two good archetypes that bump them up a little.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:55:28 No.27870460
>>27870400
????

Is this guy for real?

I'm done, he's just trolling.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:55:51 No.27870463
>>27870427
And none of those things imply that your changes will be good.

None of them. If you are making shit rulings you better fucking expect to be called out on them from anyone who knows the damn game.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:56:00 No.27870467
>>27870420
dont try to get defenseive with me because you dont like how the game is played. its not like his game affects you in any way whatsoever.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:57:35 No.27870498

[Missing image file: Untitled.jpg]
>>27870347
Dungeon Master's Guide, chapter 1, page 14.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:57:39 No.27870499
>>27870467
I think you're mixing up defensive and offensive, manchild

still outlining that epic fantasy novel you've been talking about for the past five years?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:58:43 No.27870515
>>27870460
I doubt he knows what the acronym DM stands for. I suspect he will google it, then post some silly interpretation.

Anon, I know rule one, and I use it when there's something that needs fixing in our game.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:58:57 No.27870520
>>27870347
Oh my god, someone who can run a game that doesn't follow the rules exactly and still lets his players have fun! Impossibru!

>>27870351
Page 9 of the PF Core Rule book.
>The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs.
>You can change them to fit your needs.
>You can change them to fit your needs.
>You can change them to fit your needs.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:59:02 No.27870524
>>27870467
>idiot spreads idiot rulings that break the game in ways that idiots can't pick up on
>new player/DM sees said idiot ranting, thinks "Hey, that's a good idea!" because he doesn't know any better
>starts a game with it and then the game is fucked up because of his new rulings
Do you have any idea how many times I've seen something like that happen?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 00:59:34 No.27870538
>>27870515
>I know rule one
Bullshit, because it's called Rule Zero.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:00:31 No.27870557
>>27870498
cool

now did you read the corollaries in the lower section? because I'm not sure you're clear on how the rule works, why it existed in the first place, whether it will impact once class over others, or whether it will effect other rules and situations

I say that because the WBL is intrinsic to the assumed mathematical prowess of all of the characters by the rest of the rules of the game, and if you change that, you better be ready for you game not to work properly

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:00:39 No.27870563
>>27870538
Maybe in America it is you wanker.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:00:58 No.27870569
>>27870499
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:01:07 No.27870571
>>27870463
None of those things imply his changes will be bad either. You don't know him. You don't know me, or anyone else here. You're making baseless assumptions on the internet, and that makes you as much of an expert on rules as everyone else here.

And that goes for everyone in this thread.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:01:39 No.27870584
>>27870557
>Moving the goalposts
You asked for a quote and you got it. This isn't primary school, you can't just change the rules because you're losing.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:01:48 No.27870589
I always liked the Scarred Witchdoctor Archtype. You have to be an Orc Witch. Instead of using your INT to cast spells you use your CON. You get a scary mask and have to cut yourself. And you are an orc but otherwise, pretty cool.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:02:08 No.27870595
>>27870557
>assumed mathematical prowess of all of the characters by the rest of the rules of the game

There is ONE WBL table, not one for each class. The mathematical prowess of all the characters is not equal.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:02:17 No.27870599
>>27870557
Unless he changes it so that it does work properly.

Some people can do that, you know. It's weird, but true.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:02:36 No.27870605
>>27870584
the real losers here are your players, stuck with you

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:03:00 No.27870616
>>27870571
>None of those things imply his changes will be bad either.
I'm pretty sure that having a rule that means "nobody but spellcasters are capable of performing what they're expected to and lowering the CR of enemy encounters superpowers them because now SoLs are even more powerful due to shittier saves" does mean that guy's change is bad in every way possible.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:04:58 No.27870665
>>27870605
Your entire rant up until now is basically "IF YOU'RE NOT HAVING FUN MY WAY THEN IT'S NOT FUN". Grow up. Seriously.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:05:46 No.27870677
>>27870342
>No, the math on the monsters expects the DM to have a fucking brain.
Really now?
>>27870270 says otherwise, and PF is exactly the same there.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:06:02 No.27870685
>>27870605
>Speaking for people he doesn't know and thinks are oppressed and/or suffering
We tumblr now.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:08:22 No.27870728
>>27870427
Given that the GM has to play with other people who can expect as a default for the base rules to be followed and that these players should not be made to feel like they have no say in the story a good GM should explain their changes

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:08:34 No.27870730
>>27870605
Yup. All my players have stockholm syndrome. They reach out of their cells and scream "Please! Run the game! Running tonight? Please run the game!"

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:08:54 No.27870741
>>27870589

You don't have to be an orc. Aasimar (with Scion of Humanity) and Human can also get into it. Racial Heritage counts for Archetypes.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:15:02 No.27870850
>>27870728
>>27870677
>>27870616
>>27870557
>Can you change these rules?
Yes

>Should you change the rules?
Fuck no.

>Does 'Rule 0' mean I don't have to know the whole game from a developmental stance in order to know what effects my changes will have?
No, it really doesn't.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:16:05 No.27870876
>>27870730
that's exactly what I'm saying

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:17:10 No.27870894
>>27870876
>>27870605
dude you're really not helping, kindly gtfo

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:19:12 No.27870928
>>27870850
Exactly what I was saying.

If you don't know the system and don't know what your changes are going to do to the game, you shouldn't be changing the game. And that's including a game like 3E, where you NEED to change shit to make it work like it's supposed to. You can actually fuck it up even worse through incompetence and assuming it works for a low magic game.

It doesn't even take more than 10 minutes of research to determine what those changes would do to the game and yet this guy STILL thinks everyone who's telling him he's retarded is entitled.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:21:35 No.27870974
>>27870876
Did... you just completely ignore obvious sarcasm?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:22:42 No.27870995

[Missing image file: Badwrongfun.jpg]
>>27870850
And some people do know what the fuck they're doing.

It's hard to accept, but yes, sometimes people actually can think and they can do math, and they can even change rules and make games continue - or even start to - be fun despite the holy grail that is THE RULES you people are so gung ho over.

I can see why 4e was such a hit with some people. "It's a game where changing any of the rules breaks the game! Now we don't have to think for ourselves! No more GM's doing weird things!"

It actually makes me sad.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:22:44 No.27870997
>>27870928
I think
>>27870850
was agreeing with you. Ignoring WBL is a shit plan

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:24:06 No.27871023
>>27870997
I know he's agreeing with me.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:25:17 No.27871051
>>27870995
You can change the rules in 4E just fine. I've done it many times and it's not all that hard.

You know what it does, though? It makes changes made by people who don't know what the fuck they're doing - like you - immediately obvious because they shit up the game.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:25:28 No.27871053

[Missing image file: wha wai WAAA.png]
>>27870730
.....can I be one of your players, sir?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:25:45 No.27871058
>>27870995
>And some people do know what the fuck they're doing.
sure, but not this >>27869756 chucklefuck right here

even besides that, it's probably better just to play a new game entirely than try to cut the dead meat from the lumbering zombie hulk that is 3.5e

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:26:28 No.27871076
>>27870995
>And some people do know what the fuck they're doing.
When your houserule is literally "1/4 the WBL for everyone!", it becomes obvious to everyone that you don't know what you're doing in any respect *because you don't even understand why WBL is the way it is right now*.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:27:13 No.27871090
>>27871053
>>27870730
samefag

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:28:17 No.27871117
What kind of idiot would think that Pathfinder or 3.5 could easily be played as a low-magic game while allowing full casters? Thats self-contradictory and silly.

Secondly, while the DM does have the right to change the rules to fit his needs ,the simple facts are, if you use the CR system even as a guideline, then your players, to fight at the level of the monsters they will be facing, will require to be properly equipped. This is of course only common sense, if I am fighting a large ice dragon with ungodly thick skin, the game's math will probably assume that I have a means of flight and a magical weapon of some form. So if I run out there with a metal longsword instead of a flaming sword, and on foot instead of on a pegasus's back, it is no surprise if I get raped. The game presumes that if players fight equal-level targets, they will have equal-level equipment. So, the only way to play the game without equal level equipment, is by lowering, sometimes drastically, the power of enemies.

Chainmail and a spear are fine for hunting kobolds, but ogres and shoggoths and akoleths require a bit of preparatoin. Rings of Water Breathing and Shocking Swords and Coral Platemail aren't luxuries for such battles, they're essentials and the game reflects that.

Its a matter of fact in these games also, that that casting classes need less magic equipment then the fighting classes, AND are on average stronger then the fighting classes. So be using proper CR challenges with improper WBL you are not only crippling the worst classes, you are risking throwing your game's already tenous balance out the window.

When I DM Pathfinder I play it is a very high magic affair, and give my players MORE wealth then the rules recommend. Giving them less only works if you presume that players will keep fighting the same challenges, over and over again, or will progress very slowly if at all.

This is because the game's math is built on the assumption of magic increasing personal power.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:29:38 No.27871136
>>27869692
>>27869777
And if you play with a DM that doesn't allow this, but let's you choose it in the first place, that's a bad DM.

I only play with good DM's

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:31:33 No.27871169

[Missing image file: Nyaruko San Coc.jpg]
>>27871051
>make assumptions
Funny, my players are having loads of fun with the changes I made. Guess that makes an ass out of one of us.

That's the problem with "don't change the rules you'll break it" elitists like yourself. It's inconceivable (used correctly in this instance) that someone might actually have a grasp of the game that supersedes your kind advice on "don't do this because you're stupid."

I'm all for anyone changing things in their games. Because if it breaks....it's like the book is still there and people can stop using those rule changes! It's incredible! And they learn from the experience! I like people learning! It makes them more capable.

So, have a nice day. I'm going to go prep a game with changed rules and watch my players have fun.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:33:06 No.27871201
>>27871169
If you are using drastically lower then normal WBL, then you must also be using much lower then recommend CR, or your players must use very creative, and DM allowed means to circumvent what would otherwise be certain death.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:33:11 No.27871202

[Missing image file: Not_Samefag _2013-10-21.png]
>>27871090
Nope.

Just goes to show you how stupid you actually are.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:35:22 No.27871240
>>27871201
>then you must also be using much lower then recommend CR
At which point, spellcasters.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:35:44 No.27871247
>>27871201
And that's horrible, I know, it's so awful that people are having fun by breaking the rules.

Yet it still happens.

Incidentally, I am running a gestalt PF game with Mythic Power. Don't know what the other guy is actually running. And guess what? My players are still having fun. Shocking, huh?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:36:12 No.27871255
>>27871169
Hi. I was just passing by this thread.

Almost everything in your post makes me hate you. You actually have to explain that you're using a word correctly? You also have an unearned sense of entitlement. In addition, you are clearly mad and typing like a child would speak.

You are a whore, and a slut, and I am done with you.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:38:06 No.27871301
>>27871240
>implying one cannot adjust the saving throws of the monsters to alter the success of spellcasters at the same time
Impossibru!

You people are so stuck on your elitist views that you can't even think your way out of a wet paper bag open at both ends and the side.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:39:09 No.27871327
>>27871255
Oh no. Whatever will I do.

And yes, considering how often people post the "inconcievable meme" it was worth mentioning.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:40:43 No.27871355
>>27871327
And now you are explaining why you had to explain in the first place.

Fuck

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:40:44 No.27871356
>>27871247
I don't think people were minding your playstyle, they were minding you calling WBL "Optional". Its optional for Pathfinder in the sense that dice or character sheets are optional. I suppose there ARE ways around it [virtual rollers, scant notes on your PCs stats and skills, really really really low and uncomplex CR encounters]. But it means a vastly different style of game then the rules presume.

So the problem with you is that you're calling a basic assumption of the game's normal math [Namely, that players will advance in power through the acquisition of a fuckton of magic items] into a nonessential element. Which it isn't, its absolutely necessary to play the game as originally intended, and it takes clever players and a clever DM to "get around" what is otherwise a built in idea for the system.

So they weren't saying "Your fun is wrong", they were saying "You suck at math and game design".

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:42:24 No.27871380
>>27871301
With your tenuous grasp of the game's scaling I doubt you'd even be able to do that.

Spellcasters also don't only have to SoL enemies. With these shit restrictions up, a Druid would walk all over everything, to say nothing of a battle Cleric or a Summoner.

>You people are so stuck on your elitist views
Elitism is NOT calling someone out for being flat out retarded and not knowing what he's talking about while continuing to talk about things he knows nothing about. If anything, your dipshit ass is the elitist, seeing as how you posted this steaming load of a post over here. >>27870012

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:46:28 No.27871459
>>27871356
But the only information they have is "I changed this". They have no information on how the GM changed CR, what other systems he may or may not have used, or what his players were playing, or ANY other information.

They all just jumped on a bandwagon of assumptions and then told anyone who disagreed with the idea that he couldn't possibly know what he was doing they were stupid.

They don't know that. They don't know he was stupid. They just decided he was. They decided people defending him were stupid. And you know what? Maybe they're right. But maybe they're wrong.

It's obvious that people got mad....but the sad part is they got mad for all the wrong reasons.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:46:35 No.27871461

[Missing image file: hbVau6P.png]
>>27871053
I don't run too often (I burn out very easily) but I'll probably post something up in a gamefinder thread. I'll post under my Resident Kyantol trip.

>>27871076
I find it funny you say all that, but in all honesty you're just getting butthurt, angry, furious, and downright aggressive just because I like low-wealth. You've contributed little but attacks, insults, and for some reason the Markdown syntax which doesn't even work on 4chan. You are, quite literally, arguing over the internet because someone isn't playing by your rules, for a game you're not in, a game you might never play, in a setting you have never heard of.

Besides, your opinion is inconsequential. If my players had a problem, they'd either tell me or not bother showing up.

>>27871380
That's not me you paranoid imbecile.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:48:41 No.27871502
>>27871461
>If my players had a problem, they'd either tell me or not bother showing up.
Considering how you're reacting to people telling you that you're wrong? Yeah, no.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:48:58 No.27871510

[Missing image file: Wrong Again.png]
>>27871380
Wrong about samefagging. Wonder what else you might be wrong about.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:49:23 No.27871522
>>27871459
True, but a statement like "I give players only 1/4th the money the rules recommend you give players", is a statement akin to "Monks as written are OP so I nerfed them".

There MIGHT be justification for their idea [such as a minmaxer or a cheater in the Monk example], or they may simply have introduced other houserules.

But since the player said "I give players really shitty WBL" and didn't mention at all any houserules he had that would make this ok, and instead mocked people for playing a "JRPG", by which of course he meant, "Giving players money and magic items like candy instead of treating them like sacred relics", they were in full right to mock him.

He certainly SOUNDED stupid, regardless of whether or not he really is.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:50:17 No.27871533
>>27871502
Pity the ones telling him he's wrong aren't actually correct about who they're posting to. It's like they're wrong, or something.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:53:50 No.27871587
>>27871202
rustled, much?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:55:15 No.27871608
>>27871502
I have a novel idea!

Accept that he has a different style, that his players have no issue with it, and to not play in his game because it's not your thing

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:56:06 No.27871618
>>27871522
That's true. It's also true that he posted it in a sarcastic, hammy manner. I mean look at the way he posted it.

>My players consider themselves lucky if they have one person's "expected" wealth between them.

As a reply to comments of
>How is it not fucking obvious to you? If you aren't using the guideline in play, the creation guideline in case someone else comes in late is worthless.
>Wealth by level is a character creation guideline, not play guideline.
>implying white room theorycrafting is not more representative of gameplay than actual gameplay
>Don't argue, boy. Everyone who has played any tabletop game knows that those standards are thrown out the window the INSTANT character creation ends and varies campaign-to-campaign to the point where it breaks to pieces faster than CR.

It was a joke. And people acted like it was god's very own truth that he was retarded.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:57:09 No.27871636
>>27871618
That is not sarcastic.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:57:52 No.27871648

[Missing image file: FTTIO Sage.gif]
>>27871587
Not even slightly. I find the whole thing hilarious as all hell.

I bet 1/4 Wealth-kun does too.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:58:12 No.27871653
>>27871608
Or how about I call him retarded for propagating bad ideas that break the game and derailing the thread with garbage? How about that?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:58:35 No.27871658
I hate you all

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:59:04 No.27871667
>>27871636
Well, I wouldn't call it 'ironic', nor 'hyperbolic'. I think 'sarcasm' is as close to a descriptor as I can find without grabbing a thesaurus that I actually don't own.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:59:19 No.27871671
>>27871608
But we've already done that. No one here doubts that he has fun, or that his players have fun, obviously if his games are still going strong he's managed to find a way or bumble a way into a fun way of playing a low-wealth game.

What we're saying however, is that if he thinks that under normal circumstances a low-wealth game is possible, he's a bloody moron with no concept of the game or its mathematical or game design assumptions.

And treating magic items like rare treasures instead of simply higher grade equipment IS playing the game in a way different from the norm.

D&D 3.5 edition and Pathfinder presume that players will empower themselves with a moderately large amount of magical items, and while its possible to play a game where that is not so, it is not how the game was intended to be played, and if you have even a single full Caster in such a group, he WILL wreck the balance due to his far lower dependence on magic items, unless he and the DM have a gentleman's agreement that the Wizard or Druid will intentionally hold back.

But that of course can lead to the other players feeling patronized.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:59:36 No.27871677
>>27871648
you're going to a lot of trouble to prove a drive-by troll wrong...

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 01:59:58 No.27871684
>>27871667
It's none of those. He was serious. I've played under DMs with similar attitudes and they never know what the fuck they're talking about.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:00:06 No.27871687
>>27871653
Nope, that was me. I'm not even sorry.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:01:09 No.27871706
>>27871677
Sleep deprivation. Needed a laugh. Worked too.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:01:23 No.27871713
>>27871648
wow you're so cool

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:02:27 No.27871732
>>27871706
ha

haha


so justified

wow

such importance

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:05:25 No.27871777

[Missing image file: 7C4SwzH.jpg]
trolls trolling trolls, this thread is long-dead

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:10:05 No.27871862
I find it hilarious that someone is jumping to the defense of the fact that D&D characters are so reliant on their magic items, that a Lv10 character's recommended wealth could be used to hire and outfit a small army instead.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:12:22 No.27871898
Is there a way to make a TWF Sword and Board good?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:14:14 No.27871929

[Missing image file: Yugioh024.jpg]
>>27871862
Less efficient. Your soldiers die against the first dragon you fight and you're fucked.

Thats why, if you go the army route, you instead hire planars. They respawn.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:15:41 No.27871955
>>27871898
Nope. Just like 3.5 before it, PF treats sword and board like shit. Animated shields even made it into PF just to rub it in.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:17:33 No.27871988
>>27871929

Bloody Skeletons also work.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:17:44 No.27871991
>>27871862
An army can't operate in stealth or travel as quickly as a plucky band of invincible, invisible flying demigods.
Plus unless you have lots of open ground to fight on those numbers wont do shit.
So whilst armies are great at sacking cities and conquering countries, they suck in other aspects.
I mean shit, just feeding them is a pain, plus you can't just pay them once, they need more than that.
>>27871955
So no way to spiked shield bash it up as some kind of crazy sword and shield wielding ranger? Shame.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:19:17 No.27872012
>>27871991
>So no way to spiked shield bash it up as some kind of crazy sword and shield wielding ranger?
Technically you can. It's just that you'll suck really hard and feel incompetent after the fact.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:19:31 No.27872015
This thread seems pathfinder related too! I just have a quick rules questions, quite unrelated to OP's query.

http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/spiritwall--529/

Would they take the damage and level drain multiple times if I were to, say, cast this at the beginning of a long corridor and they ran through multiple squares of the wall?

Or is it 1d10 damage + 1 level drain once per entry to the wall?

It feels like the latter, but I want to be sure.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:21:34 No.27872056
>>27872015
Only once, although by most counts they'd also take it 1/round while they're in it.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:22:07 No.27872064
>>27872015
That's not a Pathfinder spell, but...

Walls are generally a flat plane, or otherwise written, in this case a swirling sphere or hemisphere. So in any case, they would travel through it once, per direction traveling. ie., if traveling North through a Wall, just once, and if North then South, twice. Same for a sphere or hemisphere, to one side, or both.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:23:10 No.27872090
>>27872015
>>27872064
along a long corridor, bro


They'd take it once, unless the spell had a caveat saying "and 1/round for every round within it"

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:26:34 No.27872146
>>27872064
you are right, but my DM allows me some small leeway with my necromancer spell's provided I clear them with him first.

The wall is stated to be a 10-ft. square/level, or a sphere or hemisphere with a radius of up to 1 ft./level.

We do a lot of urban combat with narrow streets, catacombs, and the like. I was curious if multiple runs through a few dozen feet of spectral wall had any effect.

I do not believe it does. However, by casting kelgores grave mist +rime+ fell draining I should be able to broker quite some mileage out of this.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:28:30 No.27872180
>>27871898
>>27872012

I've seen paladins that do well with sword'n'board as a TWF style (rather than a 'hide behind shoeld and poke with sword' approach).

But that might be because of all the smite-based damage-boosts, which, as a pure martial fighter or ranger you'd probably be hard-pressed to emulate.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:30:40 No.27872215
>>27872056
>>27872064
>>27872090
As long as /tg/ is pointing out similar things i guess i should ask a question i can never get a straight answer to about 3.5.
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/fell-drain--1103/
If i used this on a spell that did damage over multiple rounds, would it drain a level each time?
Its a very poorly worded spell.
>>27872146
Oh hey thats related to what i was asking.
>>27872180
Its a shame because i know pathfinder has some shield fighter archetypes.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:31:24 No.27872234
>>27872180
It's only because of Smite. Up to +20 to damage on all attacks is pretty solid.

A ported Warblade could also do it and come out better than PF melee thanks to Stormguard Warrior being a wrecking ball of a feat for TWFers, but you'd be hard pressed to get a DM to agree to letting you play one without crying because of PF's fanbase.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:32:14 No.27872246
>>27872215
>If i used this on a spell that did damage over multiple rounds, would it drain a level each time?
By RAW, it seems like yes it would, however that's retardedly good.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:34:21 No.27872278
>>27872215
Yes, yes it would. Magic Missile also acts as a multi-level drainer because it's 5 instances of damage.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:35:17 No.27872299
>>27872215
the spell has to be active for multiple rounds, so kelgores grave mist is a great example. acid arrow type of dots would not work.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:35:45 No.27872310
>>27872234
Well i am at equal chances of being in either a 3.5 or Pathfinder campaign, so if you could give more advice on how to Warblade weapon and shield fight I'd really appreciate it.
>>27872278
Doesn't magic missile with multiple missiles against one target count as just xd4+x where x is the number of missiles?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:38:19 No.27872348
>>27872234
>Channel the Storm
Sweet jesus what the fuck.
Find any way to trigger more than one AoO against a target in a round and then next round you will murder them.
Or is it Combat Rhythm that is supposed to be good? That seems okay but not as good as the one above.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:38:33 No.27872351

[Missing image file: _0_3qz98d.jpg]
>>27870312
>>Switching from 2e to broken-as-fuck-unbalanced-caster-edition-3e
2nd Ed AD&D? The edition who's CEO, Lorraine Williams, FORBADE PLAYTESTING during? And you're calling 3E "broken as fuck"????
PIC RELATED

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:41:01 No.27872386
>>27872348
Not at my PDFs, but if Combat Rhythm is supposed to be the one where you give up attacks for a attack and damage bonus against a single target, then I have three words for you, buddy. Avalanche of Blades.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:41:08 No.27872389
>>27870730

Same here

Started a campaign at the start at uni, players always like "Game night, right?" 'when's the next game?"

Makes me feel good inside.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:43:44 No.27872428
>>27872351
The only thing 2E has that is better than 3.5 is surprisingly simple.
Spells take more than one fucking action to cast, hell most take multiple rounds.
Thats it, thats all casters need.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:43:52 No.27872432
>>27871929
And even if they DO survive against the dragon, you have to spend the money/spells/whatever to heal them, restock them, replace any weapons the dragon destroyed, take time to hire replacements for those you lost, not to mention you have to feed these guys.

An army of summons? They got their own shit, if they die fuck that resummon more, don't need to heals because you can summon more, don't need to pay for feeding them, etc.

An army of summons is just superior in every way to an regular army.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:44:18 No.27872443
The saves system is crap, instead of saves, you should have damage spells do whatever their half effect is. There should be no instant kill spells. Any spell that is a type of barrier should be able to be overcome by a spell of a similar level, on average. So like a 3rd level wall spell, should crumble when struck by 17 points of damage, unless it has some easily bypassed weakness. Save or lose spells should be thrown out completely. Save and lose spells she also be thrown out, modified to something less crap.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:47:43 No.27872497
>>27872348
>Or is it Combat Rhythm that is supposed to be good?
The entire feat is good. Really good. Arguably the best TWF feat in the game good. Your shitty iteratives at the end of a full attack won't contribute much to your overall damage, so if you can't kill someone within a round, you use those to stack up Combat Rhythm for the next turn. Channel the Storm is god tier for anyone who can force enemies to provoke iteratives - like a Karmic Striker - and is AMAZING if you combine something like Evasive Reflexes with it so you take a couple of hits, give up the AoOs for a bonus, then once you've gotten +8 to hit and damage from giving those up, possibly within ONE provoke if you have a certain feat, you 5 ft step away with Evasive Reflexes then 5 ft step back in and shit on them with huge damage the next turn.

It is never safe to melee a TWF Warblade or Fighter in 3.5.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:48:06 No.27872503
>>27872443
Whats more bullshit then the Saves system, is the partial Saves system.

How is it that even if I make my saving throw, I still get fucked over? Thats just stupid.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:49:29 No.27872526
>>27872428
>Spells take more than one fucking action to cast,
No they don't.
>hell most take multiple rounds.
No they don't.

They have a delay on them. Most spells have a lower delay than weapons, but it's still enough to allow actual interruption of a spellcaster with attacks. Spellcasters are also fragile in 2E.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:50:01 No.27872536
>>27872443
>No Instant Kill spells
Well fuck you too buddy, balance be damned they are thematic as fuck for that Lich to fling at you.
Save or lose spells should just give you a save each turn instead of at the beginning then fuck you.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:51:51 No.27872563
>>27872503
They should have just made "partial" saves a built in thing but also have a "full" save.
Like a spell might say "Partial save is DC15, but if you get 25 thats a full save".

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:52:02 No.27872568
>>27872503
Oh god this actually came up in the recent shitstorm going on at the D&DNext playtest forums, namely that it's retarded that Fighters can do, at most, a whole 5 damage if they miss while using a specific weapon type and take a specific feat/Fighter path(mainly by going "HOW CAN THEY TAKE DAMAGE, THE FIGHTER MISSED.", while conveniently ignoring the whole "Then how can I die by saving against damage." counter-argument)

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:52:19 No.27872575
>>27872536
Ok lets talk thematic. Its thematic for a Lich to instant-kill a peasant [which can be represented by the spell doing high damage]

The Lich insta-killing Hercules or Lancelot isn't thematic, its retarded. No protaganist ever goes down in one hit to someone of equal power to themselves.

And Save or Lose spells are also dumb. The problem with Save or Lose and Save or Die, is that they go around the entire HP system.

Which is dumb.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:52:56 No.27872584
>>27872536
It's not thematic for the HERO OF THE GODDAMN STORY to curl up and die because the bad guy said so. He can do that to non-heroes and you represent that by making them easier to kill.
A save or lose spell is generally lethal THAT ROUND, good example? Sleep, you collapse on the ground in a heap, and someone with a knife coup de graces you. Well done our conquering hero/villain/faggot.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:52:58 No.27872585
>>27872536
>Well fuck you too buddy, balance be damned they are thematic as fuck for that Lich to fling at you.
Save or Die spells (and abilities) are fucking stupid. You have a goddamn HP system, don't just invent something that completely circumvents most of the rules. Fuck you.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:55:21 No.27872620
>>27872575
>Hero equal power to the villain
What the sweet fuck, thats a rival, not a real villain.
You overcome them despite the odds being stacked against you damn it, they SHOULD be able to vaporize your ass, only thing capable of saving you is your special protective amulet/favor of the gods/protective magic from your band of childhood friends.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:56:49 No.27872649
>>27872584
In D&D you aren't the god damn hero of the story, you are ONE of the heroes of the story and death isn't even permanent for you in most cases.
The point of such spells is to circumvent the HP system so that there are other dangers and risks to the players that they must prepare for.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:57:01 No.27872652
>>27872620
>hero =/= equal power to kill villain
The fuck it doesn't, unless you're playing a horror game, and you are definitely using the wrong fucking system for that. Go play Call of Cthulhu instead, thay's more up your alley.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:58:27 No.27872684
>>27872620
Ok. If the villain is a far stronger enemy then the player, he should be able to deal enough damage to kill him in 1-2 hits. That is how you represent that. By making the Lich higher LEVEL then the hero.

You don't do it by making any spellcaster of equal or slightly lower level able to just wave his mago-dick and instant kill you if you get reasonably unlucky.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:59:01 No.27872695
>>27872649
So? You still haven't seen a hero of a story just die outright, unless it's part of the story, and most of those aren't PCs. Death is permanent until you gain access to resurrection spells, unless you want to have your setting keep that kind of shit on hand all the time.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:59:36 No.27872705
>>27872649
>The point of such spells is to circumvent the HP system so that there are other dangers and risks to the players that they must prepare for.
No, fuck you. This is bullshit. Adding binary "you must have bothered with [this thing] to not get shitraped by a die roll" shouldn't be in an RPG.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 02:59:50 No.27872709
>>27872649
Regardless of their original point, they break the game. Its not fun to have extremely good defenses [like say, +35 in all saves, AC 56, DR 10/Adamantium] and then be told "Oh sorry, you die instantly because the Lich-Lord's spell is DC 40 and you rolled a 4.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:02:34 No.27872754
>>27872684
I think you should still have to be much higher level than the target to do it, but making the spell equally deadly to the tank or the wizard or whoever the fuck else is a key part of these spells.
>>27872709
Thats really more of an issue with their implementation currently than their concept.
The spells should be "Are you strong enough to shrug it off y/n" more than a gamble.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:04:06 No.27872780
>>27872754
That would be why you do things like attribute damage instead, or have a spell that simply does a % of your hp.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:06:55 No.27872836
>>27872780
That actually makes sense.
If all "Death ray" spells just did a shit ton of con damage i would like them more.
They still provide the "HP isn't your only weakness" aspect and thematically feel like they damage your "life" rather than your body.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:07:01 No.27872840
>>27872310
>so if you could give more advice on how to Warblade weapon and shield fight
In the absolute worst case scenario, they're capable of replacing their damage with Concentration rolls or adding large amounts of extra damage dice to their attacks. They're really good at this in particular.

In the best case scenario, they shit out more attacks than a dumb double pistol TWFing Gunslinger.

They're better at this in PF, but not by a whole lot; both TWF and sword and board are feat intensive and dipping into the Pathfinder Fighter for a few levels allows you to get access to some really nice flat effectiveness boosts(albeit mostly through Gloves of Dueling) and round out your feats. Warblade 20 is still viable, though.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:07:03 No.27872841
>>27872754
>>27872780
Or just use the Color Spray model, which has an effect based on your Hit Die. Only change it to "Hit Die below the caster"

To a CL-5 the spell might just be "You die, no save". Or a CL+2 it might be "Roll a save or get a -2 to your next round of attacks."

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:09:36 No.27872903
>>27872841
>CL cheesing Holy Word spammers as the baseline
Please no. Please.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:10:35 No.27872925
>>27872836
Speaking of which, what are the best ways to do Con damage in pathfinder and 3.5?
Seems poison is one of the main sources of it, but its not particularly practical for most builds.
I know monks can punch the constitution out of people, but other than that what is there?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:11:40 No.27872959
>>27872903
Making it of course where you can't buff your effective Caster Level.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:13:11 No.27872996
>>27872925
Spells, probably.

Mountain Tombstone Strike is no-save 2d6 Con damage. Any initiator can get it at IL 17.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:15:50 No.27873053
>>27872996
I was hoping for something lower level than that.
Spells that deal CON damage are surprisingly rare.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:17:26 No.27873081
>>27873053
That's because things like that are really fucking lethal.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:17:26 No.27873082
>>27872215
my personal favourite combo right now for cheap CC is kelgores grave mist + rod of rime + fell draining

I have a trait that reduces metamagic cost by 1 and a cohort who is a slaymate.

Total metamagic cost is 0, though I've bumped that to +1 +full casting to be a little less spammy.

Enemy takes 1d6 cold damage

Is fatigued, entangled, and level drained 1/round that the enemy starts its turn in.
-2 str, -6 dex, -2 attack, can neither run nor charge, moves at half speed, -1hd (a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks and -5 hp/negative lv)

no save, spell resistance only applies to the fatigue.

Easily countered by cold resistance, death ward, and a host of other spells but good for mooks or if you get the drop on someone.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:18:48 No.27873107
>>27872925
Step 1: Get DSP approved.
Step 2: Be a Shaper with enough points in Craft Alchemy that you can reliably craft Black Lotus Extract.
Step 3: Use minor creation to make Black Lotus Extract.
Step 4: EVERYONE'S GETTING POISONED!
Step 5: Jack up your ML and laugh as you realize that poisons are like, roughly an ounce of liquid.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:19:55 No.27873125
>>27873107
DSP?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:21:06 No.27873148

[Missing image file: dsp.jpg]
>>27873125

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:21:06 No.27873150
>>27873053
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/rain-of-frogs

level 3 spell, summons a diminutive spell that deals con damage. The dc is pretty easy, but sick em on the back line caster, and they will disrupt his spells and he'll wiff a save eventually.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:22:57 No.27873181
>>27873125
Dreamscarred Press, they're third party, but they generally do good things. Better than Paizo even, which admittedly isn't a huge amount of praise. They did/are still doing psionics for Pathfinder.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:24:32 No.27873219
>>27873148
Darksydephil writing for a system as awful as d20 would not surprise me at all.
>>27873181
Neat.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:26:06 No.27873248
>>27869236
>and by 15th the fighter will be more versatile than the synthesist because the synthesist needs time to buff himself and worse, can't cast anything worth casting and be a combat monster at the same time.

>a fighter will be more versatile than a caster

did i read this correctly

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:34:39 No.27873427
>>27873248
yeah I guess you did. I disagree as well.

played a lv 15 game. The synthesist was knocking out 6 attacks a round and doling out something around 30-40 damage each attack at +27ish, had 400+ hp (including temps) and a minimum save of +22, with a best save of +27.

I am pretty convinced he misunderstood the rules for primary and secondary natural weapons but regardless, he trounced both fighters in the group handily.

I believe he was a straight internet build, and horridly over optimized for an investigative game.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:36:26 No.27873454
>>27872351
you're kidding right?

3E, where Monte Cook and his team broke the game on purpose for something they called "Ivory Tower Game Design", publicly apologized for doing so, and then wrote articles about how broken the game was and how retarded their campaigns were while designing Next?

The one that had 10 years worth of mathematics and statistics done by literal autists on Gleemax to show that the game is broken as fuck?

The one that was literally replaced by Pathfinder, a game that advertised itself as fixing "the super broken 3e"?

You're the full retard. Play 2e, and you'll realize that despite lorraine williams, the only truly broken thing about that game was the fact that a fighter/thief was objectively better than a straight thief in every way. That's it.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:39:35 No.27873524
>>27873427
That's pretty accurate, but at level 16 you should be slinging 5 attacks around at a higher accuracy and at ~+47-50 damage.

Not that that helps. The Synthesist is a way more flexible combatant.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:40:01 No.27873536
>>27872443
They're left over from the older editions of d&d, where the design philosophy was "If you're making a save, it means you already fucked up and here is your final chance to pray to the dice gods do that you don't have to reroll."

Which is why they were so fucking stupid in 3rd, where everything expected you to be making saves as part of the balance, and why they got rid of it in 4e.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:40:38 No.27873546
>>27873427
>Not optimizing for your investigative games
Fact is he was unoptimized, i bet he couldn't even see through walls, read thoughts, view the past, present, future and alternate planes all at once all the time.
Far more useful skills than combat aptitude for an investigative campaign.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:41:51 No.27873565
>>27873536
Holdovers which should not exist, they come from a system designed for and by masochists.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:44:33 No.27873617
A build I made once for one of my players and he loved it was;
>Be an Aasimar
>They can cast daylight
>That's a third level arcane spell
>One level in mage, one level in a class with proficiencies with martial weapons (if you need it)
>Prestige to Eldritch Knight by 3rd, possibly 2nd level
Perfect mage warrior who doesn't have to follow the magus build, powerful and reliable build, and doesn't have to gestalt and become over powered just for the sake of the character's concept.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:45:10 No.27873624
>>27873617
SLAs don't count for that. Never have.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:46:43 No.27873651
>>27873624

They do now.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:47:19 No.27873657
>>27873524
he was also a huge skill monkey and the party healer, and the party face.

He just dumped all his physical stats except con to abysmal levels, and took a +6 mental stat item.

Its not that he was doing incredible damage, just that it was high, fairly reliable, and he could fill damn near every other party role. (except a dedicated trapsmith)

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:47:46 No.27873666
>>27873651
Awesome, especially considering
>Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice
Why do they even have them if they're going to intentionally nerf them?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:50:03 No.27873701
>>27873651
Yuuup. A similar build can work with playing a tiefling or drow (Can cast darkness, which is a second level spell for divine and arcane casters) which makes you ready to prestige into mystic theurge by third level (one level in wizard, one in cleric) but that build is reeeaaally overpowered and probably shouldn't be permitted. I've seen it done a couple times, its always ridiculous.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:50:35 No.27873715
What do you guys think about this party composition, starting at level 1:
A dual-cursed time oracle, focused on support spells and social skills
A spy rogue focused on ranged combat and disguise/bluff and other skills
Invulnerable rager focused on beating shit up
And then the last one is a wildcard, what do you guys think would fit well?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:50:38 No.27873718
>>27873565
I never thought I'd say this unironically, but have you ever considered that you're just a casual?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:52:12 No.27873751
>>27873701
Making you MAD isn't really overpowered.

Now, Soracles? THAT is fucking overpowered.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:52:50 No.27873763
>>27873718
I play HERO SYSTEM, which is about as far from casual as you can really get.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:53:25 No.27873778
>>27873715
Rogues are really shit ranged combatants in 3E and PF and are REALLY bad at low levels thanks to feat taxes for archers. Don't do it. You want an archer skill monkey, you want the Bard.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:53:39 No.27873784
>>27873666
They allow for players to pursue different character options and ideas and just because they don't make you as strong as possible doesn't mean they don't grant you things nobody else can do.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:54:37 No.27873809
>>27873751
But... I loved playing that character. And having one in the party because holy shit-utility. What is a soracle build like? Not familiar with them.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:56:17 No.27873845
>>27873715
Clearly what you need is someone with burrow.
Doesn't matter how you get it, doesn't matter what else they do, the important thing is they can leap out of the ground and yell "SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKERS" which is a capability your party barely has.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:56:37 No.27873853
Make a half elf oracle with paragon surge. Take eldritch heritage. Take the feat to give yourself a new spell to add to your list for a little while. Access to basically any spell in the game you could normally cast at your level. The most utility inside and outside of combat any divine caster will ever have.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:57:15 No.27873862
>>27873809
>What is a soracle build like? Not familiar with them.
Pretty much exactly the same, but they're spontaneous casters that both run off of Charisma instead of INT/WIS. You're slightly behind in spell level while already being behind 1 level - not that I'd play under a DM who kept that dumbassed SKR faggotry, but not everyone has that option - but you need far fewer stats than the typical Sorc/Wiz does.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 03:58:38 No.27873888
>>27873853
That's also hilarious but I was talking about using his build for MT early entry.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:00:24 No.27873929
>>27873862
Ahhh, I gotcha. I suppose that would compliment a drow really well for the early prestige what with the charisma and dex bonuses.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:07:09 No.27874081
>>27873929
Then you get yourself some spiked mithral full plate and take a feat to lower the arcane spell failure and take grapple and cast all your spells in full plate without giving a fuck as a drow and coat your armor spikes in poison and grapple niggers and have your familiar blast them with a wand.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:16:37 No.27874283
>>27869414
>fix
>Versatile Performance
I keep thinking I've read it wrong, but it's only three words. Explain yourself.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:31:57 No.27874529
>>27873853
That doesn't fucking work. You still have to qualify for the feats taken by paragon surge, and Eldritch heritage does not grant you the spell lists of sorcerer, only the first level Bloodline Power. This is a build based on misinformation and a horrible reading of the rules.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:35:21 No.27874575
>>27874529
>and Eldritch heritage does not grant you the spell lists of sorcerer
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline
Improved Eldritch Heritage, on the other hand, does. Guess what? You're qualified to take that with Paragon Surge.

There is no misinformation here.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:39:45 No.27874650

[Missing image file: #SWAG #YOLO creator 4 lyfe.gif]
20 wizard.

1v1 me fgt

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:44:04 No.27874707

[Missing image file: 1353172046887.jpg]
>>27874650

Okay faggot.

Fighter 20.

Lets roll. Initiative, bitch.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:46:11 No.27874737
Rolled 10 + 10

>>27874707

Let me try that again...

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:47:24 No.27874754
>>27874737
Oh, did I forget to say I'm a Diviner?

"Forewarned (Su)

You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20."

GG 2 ez get on my level scrub

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:47:46 No.27874759
>>27869414
Versatile Performance doesn't work that way in PF.

You replace two skills with your performance skill. That's it. Except it's ridiculously good, since you're getting 9 skills at the cost of 3, and you're retardedly good at them all.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:49:38 No.27874792
>>27874650
I'm a 20th level monk who inflicted quivering palm on you yesterday as we passed in the street.

You are already dead.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:50:34 No.27874810
>>27874283
Versatile performance has no built-in mechanism to make points put into skills replaced by the perform skill still matter, so either your versatile performance overwrites skill points you've already assigned, wasting them, or you suddenly go from, for example, not being able to bluff at all to suddenly being amazing at it due to suddenly being able to use ranks in Perform (acting) for it. The creative director favors allowing points in those skills to be reassigned, but that's not official rule, and some others have suggested specifically allowing some of those points to be added to the perform skill.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:51:10 No.27874816
>>27874792
>20th level wizard
>walking on streets

Are you serious?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:51:16 No.27874817

[Missing image file: kaiba_8515.jpg]
>>27874754

Then cast your last pathetic spell!

After that I can move and I WILL destroy you.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:52:37 No.27874839
>>27874792
Can you give someone the Quivering Dick? Because that'd be an amazing way of dealing with people you don't like.

Just give the Wizard a girdle of femininity and a potion of Youthful appearance, impress him with that Shaolin charm, do the tango, and then bang.

Dim Mak, except my penis.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:53:01 No.27874846
>>27874792
Diviner

Also, what piss-ant level 20 wizard WALKS down STREETS as opposed to traversing the nethersphere in between planes for a simple milk run

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:54:11 No.27874869
>>27874839
A monk can unarmed strike with any body part. And quivering palm is delivered by an unarmed strike

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:54:22 No.27874872
>>27874759
Except it's weird, since you can't technically retrain skills, so you have to plan ahead. For the past ten levels you were a really shitty at diplomacy, and suddenly, due to your marvelous skill with string instruments, you have this shit.

I like the idea, just not the implementation.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:55:01 No.27874880
>>27866561
Dnd veteran here with limited knowledge of Pathfinder. Could someone kindly explain to me the primary differences, with particular relevance to professions and the mid-higher levels (paragon-epic in 4e terms)?

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:55:27 No.27874889

[Missing image file: Excellent.gif]
>>27874869

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:55:59 No.27874901
>>27869726
Halfling Sorcerer(Shadow bloodline preferred) with either Rogue or Ninja mulitclass into Arcane Trickster, very fun and powerful, if you do it right the enemy won't even know you're in the party until it is far too late

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:57:08 No.27874919
>>27874880
Professions? If you mean classes then a lot. if you mean the skill Profession, then very little.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:57:12 No.27874920
>>27874880
Pathfinder is a cleaner and simpler version of D&D 3.5. So professions are just skills, there isn't a thing called paragon and there are no rules for Epic pathfinder yet, however Mystic Adventures does a nice job of filling this niche

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 04:59:17 No.27874946
>>27874817
Sure, I cast time stop, average is roughly 3-4 turns, let's say 3.

Summon creature IX twice with Augumented Summoning and Superior Summoning.

Summon 2d4+2 (average of like 7) Elder Earth Elementals, with quickened Fly and quickened Haste.

Then I use the last turn of timestop to use Interplanetary Teleportation, to go chill out in my moonfortress, because I don't have time for shit like this.

>>
A Rogue. 2013-10-22 05:03:06 No.27875012

[Missing image file: Teahuaca.jpg]
>>27874754
Gee, a diviner. Oh no. How will I ever make a DC 15 perception check to notice you are scrying on me. I am forever in anguish. I can't possibly know if you are spying on me. How terrifying.

Also, I stole your spellbook. If you want it back, you'll have to do me a couple of favors. No, don't bother trying to cast spells to find it. It's in a holy place dedicated to a god of secrets and in a lead container, so commune and divination won't help you either. Incidentally, I'd really get those symbol spells replaced, they don't seem to work very well. Except for the one I took with me, of course, that one works just fine, and the Mocker's Guild thanks you for the use of it.

Oh, no, that won't work either. It's not my real name, and I'm perfectly capable of making all the saves against your other divination since you don't have anything to focus them on. What, this? No, this is my friend's portrait. Really, how stupid do you think I am?

After all, I wandered off with your spellbook before you noticed it was even missing.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:03:47 No.27875026
>>27874946
And that is why people say Casters need nerfs

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:04:36 No.27875045
>>27875012
Yeah sure thing you godmoting faggot. You're not getting close to my demiplane fortress, even less so to my spellbook.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:04:36 No.27875046
>>27874946
Those elementals are *really* shitty in PF. Like, missing 6 HD shitty.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:05:11 No.27875056
>>27875012
i dunno dude, this guy has a moon fortress apparently

if he's got one of those then i wouldn't be surprised if he had a demiplane only he could access to store his spellbook in

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:05:40 No.27875064
>>27874920
So do you just do similar adventures even at higher levels? Because my players are fond of adventuring and dungeon crawling and are dubious about going to epic levels and having to cross dimensions and fight demons.

>>27874919
I meant the skill profession. I find DnD pretty lacklustre with regards to this. My players have a tavern, which they've converted to an inn and a restaurant while keeping the bar. I don't know how best to determine their income, and I don't know how to adjust for modifiers such as them buying a pianist to make the mood better, or buying cats to keep snakes and pests away.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:06:51 No.27875089
>>27875064
In Ultimate Campaign, there are actually rules for owning your own business and stuff.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:10:10 No.27875157

[Missing image file: 1349408304467.jpg]
>>27875046
Yeah, but in a large number, hasted and such they just shred shit.

I don't wanna be a dick or anything, just saying.

I got a wizard in a group I'm playing with now that summons 1d3+1 small earth elementals with one cast of Summon Creature III. With haste, each of them can powerattack and stuff for 1d6+11 without additional modifiers, all likely flanking aswell. They've got tremor sense and can burrow into the ground if needed.

Honestly, it's pretty fucked up. I mean, compared to the other guys at level 5 (fighter, ranger etc) overshadowing doesn't even begin to describe it.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:11:43 No.27875193
>>27875026
Sadly, a 20th fighter will kill one or more of those elementals every round, and they won't even hurt him. And he still hasn't actually killed the fighter. Also, he can only summon one of the elementals because there isn't room to summon more.

The elementals can't catch the monk to kill him, the fighter kills them all without issue, the rogue goes unnoticed by the elementals and then thumbs through the caster's scrolls that he stole before the caster was aware of his presence, the druid talks the earth elementals into helping him do something else while they're around since they actually haven't been given any commands otherwise, the cleric sends them all back home, and the sorcerer follows the diviner tho the moon and then blows up his house.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:13:01 No.27875221
>>27875193
>and they won't even hurt him.
Not really? The Fighter's AC isn't really all that high and DR 5 is a joke.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:13:18 No.27875223
>>27875064
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime#TOC-Rooms-and-Teams

Its a pretty interesting read and might be what you would want, but I would recommend getting the pdf of Ultimate campaign for the better layout.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:14:52 No.27875257
>>27875223
>>27875089
I've downloaded TPB's torrent of Pathfinder (I already used Shadow in the Sky Golden Goblin missions to set up the tavern) so I'll have a look. Thanks guys.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:15:14 No.27875265
>>27875193
I didn't say they needed them. I said people said they needed it. For shit like that anon just said.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:15:19 No.27875268
>>27875193
If they're really lucky in ideal situations yes. No matter how high the stealth is, they've got tremor sense though, and you don't just sneak up on a level 20 diviner, even if you manage to get into his demiplane and breach his fortress. Even if you get past all the defenses. Assuming he's even there and hasn't left the place already.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:18:02 No.27875330
>>27875268
Assuming the rogue is butt-ass naked with no stealth feats.....

There are feats and other items that make you even harder to detect/plain undetectable through means like tremor sense.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:20:13 No.27875371
>>27875330
Yes.

In 3.5.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:20:46 No.27875379
>>27875371
Wasn't talking about 3.5

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:20:47 No.27875381
>>27875056
You underestimate the power of knowledge checks and info gathering.

The problem with being a legendary 20th level caster is you are a LEGENDARY 20th level caster.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:23:27 No.27875420
>>27875330
Assuming the wizard knows his shit, the way into his fortress will have anti-magic corridors with golems and shit.

Good luck with your magic items and sneak attacks tho.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:34:57 No.27875663
Easiest way to balance wizards in 3.5e?

as a DM, read their fucking spellbooks and prepare for the encounter wisely*

*counterspells, null magic fields, backstabs from 10 rogues, and a trap that forces them into buff bitch rather than no-save spell scrublord

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:40:44 No.27875765
>>27875420

Constructs can be sneak attacked now.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:46:49 No.27875857
>>27875663
So metagame like a bitch.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:48:20 No.27875878
>>27875857
Because lets face it, the player started it first.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:49:47 No.27875903
>>27875663
>AMFs
Stop. Just stop.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:50:29 No.27875910
>>27875878
Clearly you shouldn't be DMing. But then again, if you got level 20 wizards and shit in the group, maybe you guys should stop playing or start over.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:54:11 No.27875971
>>27875903
>>27875857
When the fight is obviously over the moment the wizard casts gate + cloudkill + etc etc, then you now the DM needs to start an intervention.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:56:39 No.27876001
Time stop is another spell that can get fucked.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 05:58:58 No.27876036
>>27875857
The DM cannot cheat, be overridden by rules or metagame. That's player shit

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 06:02:57 No.27876102
>>27875971
My players made me think about how I can actually make fights challenging and not just painful. It is surprising because they did it by building damage. All of them. The Druid, the Sorceress, the Barbarian and the Shadowdancer. All of them were capable of pumping out hundreds of HP damage per round. The sorceress, if she really wanted to kill something, can dish out 1000hp instantly.

This would be simple to fight if they weren't all incredibly difficult to kill. Because thats all each of them built for. Damage and survivability.

Ended up with Bosses that had 1000+ HP

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 06:03:01 No.27876104
>>27876036
The DM also are in control of all the other characters in the world, who in the case you described would be using meta information to beat the players.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 06:05:25 No.27876133
>>27876104
Xykon gambit. Power comes in the form of a +11 to listen checks, etc etc. Can't cast if you're being strangled, etc etc.

>>
Anonymous 2013-10-22 06:05:51 No.27876140
>>27876104
Who says he didn't gain the information somehow? Spies, divination, all sorts of things.

Or just simple bad luck for the PC.

Either way, the best way to challenge the PCs isn't to make them completely useless by straight countering what they are prepared to do. Its to make them use their abilities in different ways.







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